Friday, November 09, 2007

'Please, sir, I want some more.'


“Child as he was, he was desperate with hunger, and reckless with misery. He rose from the table; and advancing to the master, basin and spoon in hand, said: somewhat alarmed at his own temerity: 'Please, sir, I want some more.'”
Of course the Security Services want more time , they always will !

Cross dressing abounds in the New-statesman and Speccie this morning on Labour`s "visionary" 56 days detention. The Spectator opines that most would be happy for Mooslims to be banged up for decades,pending charges, and that if 28 days is already high for a developed democracy,then we are far more in the merde than the rest.Indeed we are, and whose fault is that?. The left Liberal Ostriches that imported a nation within a nation intent on our destruction, thats who. See Melanie Phillips Londonistan on that score....

Anyway, despite Gordon Brown and his Party being responsible for the crisis, the Spectator is supportive of the extension .This is rich Brown sauce. He has created a mess and then requires prescriptive powers to mop it up ! The support of authoritarian elements like the Mail`s Editor, Paul Dacre can be relied on.It was discussed ,no doubt ,over Dinner at Chequers where he is a frequent Brown noser.

To me it’s a little like forgetting who burnt the Reichstag building in the first place . But Brown is rather like slow motion Nazism on may ways as Dave-Boy-Greenish ,gleefully pointed out.Labour`s 'British jobs for British workers' mirrors BNP Literature in the same ilk exactly

After the 7.7 slaughter,so quickly forgotten while the Press obsesses over Iain Blair’s relatively minor crime of incompetence, investigators spent a fortnight just getting access to the site,and a further six weeks to complete forensic enquiries .In such circumstances Iain Blair, and MI5`s Mr. Evans, would love more time .MI5 would like us to believe that the relative peace we observe is the product of their vigilance. The timing of the terrifying Manchester speech was , of course , government prompted. So do they have an operational point ?

I doubt it makes a blind bit of difference.If a bureaucracy has 56 days then you can be quite certain that is how long they will take and still, like little Oliver, ... want more .
Martin Bright , the New Statesman lefty , notes sourly that the Conservative decision to defend our Liberties, has lead to a bizarre situation.. On 28 days and ID cards Conservatives , Law Lords and Liberal Britain are on one side while the Labour Party is on the other. Nothing bizarre about that Martin ,and I do not much relish your company for what its worth.

I think Conservatives have got this right . I do not see sufficient advantage in an increasing the period of detention without charge which was 48 hours in 1997. I also think that politically Cameron has once again out foxed Brown. Brown looks at Polls at thinks” Tough on Terrorism “is a winner. In gross numbers it is , but in the vital swing seats it is not . Liberal Britain predominates here . Liberals and Conservatives equally detest Mr. B`s authoritarian strutting and fake flag waving. It was his poor marginal seat analysis that caught Brown out over the phantom election.

In Simon Jenkins` book “ Thatcher and Sons “he mentions that after the Brighton Bombing our Saintly Margaret, of all virtues , did not respond with a raft of illiberal legislation , but by requesting that Marks and Spencer’s opened early so survivors could replace clothes lost in the blast. ... Brown is wrong on this and he has misjudged the British people . They do not want to sacrifice Liberties , they want the security services to pull their fingers out and do their job. 28 days is enough..

37 comments:

mutleythedog said...

I was at the Tory Party Conference in 1984 and can confirm that no one even thought about panicking or interning all the Irish... I had to lend some one a comb and I never got it back though...

Newmania said...

You are more of a multi dimensional being than a person aren`t you Multley

Nick Drew said...

Who can forget the sight of Nirj Deva, rendered ghastly white by the fall of plaster from the hotel ceiling, staggering onto his feet muttering "where are the TV cameras, lead me to the TV cameras" ... what a man! Perhaps it is he who has your comb, Mutt ?

Seriously, Mr Mania your concluding paragraph is a fine one

Newmania said...

Ooo thanks ...

Ed said...

Nirj Deva is a good man.

28 days is far too much. Try 7 at the most. The really horrific thing which is NEVER MENTIONED is that the people accused of Terror offences aren't even allowed to know the case against them, attend their own trial, or even discuss the matter with their state-appointed "attorney".

Britain is not, and has not been for some time, a liberal nation. We really must have a return to a simple and effective "innocent until proven guilty" justice system.

Newmania said...

Not sure about that Ed...like mostv other people I cannot shed too many tears about the fate or terrorist or those who are sufficiently suspicious to be picked up/.

Its not going to be me is it.

Travis Bickle said...

All those freedoms that our ancestors fought and died for being brushed away by this lamentable shambles "just in case".

Ed said...

Its not going to be me is it.

So that makes it AOK? So some citizens are entitled to a fair trial but if you are ACCUSED of terrorism you are not? Don't you think the accused (even of horrific thought-crimes) have the right to defend themselves?

Remember that man at the Labour conference was arrested under the Terror laws.

Ed said...

sufficiently suspicious to be picked up

In which case why not go for indefinite detention?

Daisy said...

in the light of terror in the states we have lost several freedoms...which often happens when people overract to the situation...at the moment cell phone calls are all monitored and logged...i don't know how it is being done...nor do i care...several people are against this...however what i discuss on the phone is very breif and not suspect of terrorism...although i have said i would like to do harm to my supervisor in some not so sweet conversations with a coworker...however no plans were made...would be interesting to see if those were to be used against me in some type of police state...

i guess what i am trying to say is there are so many aspects to this...do we condemn them without proper trial or do we go light on them and risk further terror...i don't know that there is a happy medium in this day and age...i think it's a pity we have to even discuss it...i remember a day when it didn't exist in my life...now it seems to consume it...

Newmania said...

Any civilisation has to negotiate with its values in order to protect them( Golda Meir.) Terrorism is an act of undeclared war and I agree the usual safe guards may have to be suspended. These people are not 'citizens' they are far worse than enemy soldiers who would not recive a civil trial and might be detained indefinitely .

So its not a matter of principle its just a problem of 'who' is 'who'. Therefore a compromise. I say 28 days is about right. Of course this is not where I would have started from

Ed said...

Where would you have started from?

How come 48 hours was enough ten years ago? I think it's actually very simple: it should be 24 hours just as with all criminal investigations, extendible by 24 hours at a time by a court order.

Newmania said...

Well you put the problem well Daisy. What I fear is that Governments like an enemy and an emergency so they can justify taking power . It is the classic way of intruding on free individuals

Newmania said...

Well you put the problem well Daisy. What I fear is that Governments like an enemy and an emergency so they can justify taking power . It is the classic way of intruding on free individuals

Ed said...

You are right N, it is just the government grabbing more power when it can, which is why I can't understand why you support 28 days. It's only a compromise because it's less than they asked for originally. It wouldn't have been a compromise if Blair hadn't asked for 90. Next 56 will be the compromise, then 90 will be the compromise when they ask for 120.

And even when charged they can't defend themselves! Some justice.

Anonymous said...

I am always mindful that what happened to 80 odd year old Walter Woolfgang - and much worse - could have happened to any of us under this civil liberty abusing government.

So I agree with Ed on this. There is no need for internment of anyone for any longer than the 48 hours which was the norm before nulab's dark forces took control of our country.

I think it should be a mandatory requirement that to detain any suspect for longer, the police/security forces must either charge the suspect or bring them before a court to request and justify an extension of the custody period. If this does not happen then Habeas Corpus or similar protective measure should be automatically invoked.

Where an extension of custody is agreed by a court, this should be for a specified, determinate period of reasonable duration, at the end of which the suspect must be brought back to court and the authorities must have sound justification for any further extension.

Auntie Flo'

Newmania said...

Where would you have started from?

I would not have knowingly imported a population that detests the country in the first place and I would never have supprted multicultiral polcies that have worsened the problem. I regard the extension of state coercion and the fact of a pulverise civil coherent society as directly related and i prefer we had the sort of realtionship with Muslim minorities they have in the states

Newmania said...

Ed ping pong with the courts is pointless if in practice terrorist suspects can be detained for 28 days either way.What you say makes no sense unless you want them to be set free , which i take it is a risk you are ready to run for the sake of our wider freedoms .

I think we are bit beyond that

Newmania said...

Flo you have to bear in mind that we are potetially under what might be a nuclear scale attack. the fact that there has not been one is not for lack of trying .

How many planes involving up to 70 plotters would have ploughed through US cities ...12 was it ?
Things had changed .These are not citizens they are enemies

Anyway ,I am against 56 days far more than I am for 28 days.

Daisy said...

i'm not really sure what you are under the impression of the relationship with muslims in the states...but it is not good...the press presents good things and you always hear about how people are supportive but to be honest it is not like that in reality...day to day living...people are basically doing a "sharks surrounding the bleeding victim" type approach...we let them have their place and when they step out of that...they are made uncomfortable by the "supportive people" they are either in such a victim script that they get everything they want or are excluded completely...people are tired of being told that they must assimilate to the beliefs of everyone in the world and are to be honest not as accepting as it appears in the press...we are such a diverse population and when you go to the main large cities it is different of course...but in mainstream...it isn't pretty...and it isn't something to be proud of...but we present well don't we?

Newmania said...

Daisy its odd you say that because we are certainly told that Muslims have quite different attitudes from here. In the UK surveys show a hoffifying emerging attitude of denial and radicalism. The young are worse than the old which is bewildering to me .

I am not a fan of Multi-culturalism myself and without wishing to be fascistic about it I think when you go to a country you should be prepared to love the country and defer to its ways when they conflict with yours in the public sphere at the very least .

In such an environment civil Liberties are far easier to maintain.

None of this is mysterious and my view is that people just get on with it given a chance but with such high numbers always overwhelming the existing population its awfully difficult .

Ed said...

Sorry N I don't think we are under constant attack from nuclear powered terrorists.

The 7/7 bombers got through - but they were armed with a bit of soap and an Argos alarm clock. Yes it was horrific but does locking people up pre-emptively really protect us against the determined or does it go on to encourage others to rage against the state.

It's also nonsense to suggest that we "shouldn't have let them in". Sorry N I totally disagree with you on this. What would you do, deport all Muslims on the basis that they might eventually become terrorists? Didn't "we" try that against the Catholics?

Newmania said...

Doing nothing is worse Ed and the people who have the job of protecting us wnat a lot more than 28 days as you know.

Not letting them in is a simplification of what I am suggesting Ed which is that we attended to the coherence of the nation and the culrture surrounding what is required of new comers .Even now , as you know we are allowing the seeds of the nest Terrorists atrocity to be preached all over the country.

We are not only a danger to ourlselves but the base for Europe and for attacks on America , we have been astonishingly foolhardy. My very point is that a situation has been alowed to develop where civil Liberties are threatened.There were endless warnings .

The relationship between English Cathlics and the IRA is not the same as that between Muslims and Terorrists , not at least according to Muslims when surveyed on their attitudes.

Newmania said...

...I understand the opposion however to allowing the state to have such powers though ,which why I oppose 56 days which is what the question actually is ...

Newmania said...

Back on Monday

Ed said...

Hmm I wasn't referring to the IRA, N. The Catholics I was referring to were longer ago than that.

I'm afraid I don't subscribe to your mono-culture theory, I can't see how it is the job of the state to decide how we live our lives.

Daisy said...

for me it is not so much that i want a monoculture society...i just have problems with illegal immigration into the US...i think everyone should have the same chance, same benefit...my grandmother came here from italy and struggled hard because she didn't speak the language, but learned it...she was not weathly and struggled most of her life but ended up with a family to be proud of who were all very hard workers and supported her in the end...now we have a culture invading our country who are demanding benefits...services which were once held for citizens...and we are taking the money for those benefits for citizens away and giving it blindly to people who are here illegally. I have heard the argument that things are really bad in their own country and as cruel as this sounds...tough shit...if you want it different change it there...don't bring that here...they are flying their flag over our own...our entire country has to provide spanish speaking employees to service their needs...and to be honest it is bullsh*t...everyone wants more...everyone wants to take some from the next guy...and i am sick to death of it all...

Anonymous said...

Another thing Thatcher - and Major- didn't do was to dive, snout first,into the public purse in respect of their personal renumeration packages.

Sorry to go off topic here, but I've just read that, since becoming PM, Brown receives around £187,000 in TAKE HOME salary plus £135,000 expenses (last year).

That would compare very favourably with the packages taken by Thatcher and Major.

A substantial screw, given that he has the use of two prestigious homes - Downing Street and Chequers rent-free, plus meals and travel free with the job, a golden salary package and a huge range of other tax free perks.

However, is that £187,000 really take home pay? I was under the impression it was pre-tax earnings.

Auntie Flo'

Anonymous said...

Woops, meant to say golden pension package, not golden salary package.

How do Blair and Brown's over-exalted pensions compare to Thatcher and Major's, I wonder?

Auntie Flo'

Elby the Berserk said...

Newmania - Don't be SO sure it son't be you swept off the streets. Check this sorry tale out

http://gizmonaut.net/bits/suspect.html

And remember - never look too calm when entering a tube station. It's what terrorists do.

Newmania said...

I'm afraid I don't subscribe to your mono-culture theory, I can't see how it is the job of the state to decide how we live our lives.

Unless there is a a cohering society outisde the state then the state has to and everyone will in fact beg the state to establish order. This is why the state hates that "Society"£ that is not the staste and is based on cultural ties.

This is the essence of Conservatism

Newmania said...

Well daisy thats exactly right in my view and Americans camed from all over the world to be Americans.

Newmania said...

Flo another thing about Blair was that hegave up all poltical life immediately so his earnings could not be monitored. The amount he ahs gone ion to make from America is a little worrying , don`t you think

Daisy said...

newmania...we did come from all over the world to be here...and struggle has always been a part of the "american way"...it is irritating to me when we are giving handouts as we are now yet selectively excluding those who came here legally...with a purpose to improve their lives...and are giving it to those who are here illegally and wanting to bring the crap they had in their own country into america...it is really a shame...however there are politics involved and several are benefitting...it is the few, the wealthy...everyone else is suffering due to it...but who am i to say what is right after all i am not a politician :)

Newmania said...

Oh yes daist and here they want an amnesty for illegals ....I wonder what law i shouild break away now we know no-one needs bother with them

Daisy said...

ah you made me smile newmania...perhaps we could embark on a world wide crime spree...and go to each others countries to escape as neither seems to care about that issue...

Newmania said...

snicker ...

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