Sunday, February 18, 2007

England`s Future Decided in Scotland



“Shortly after the defeated Jacobite army withdrew from the battlefield on Drumossie Moor, the Duke of Cumberland rode into Inverness clutching a drawn sword to show he was the victor. It was a gesture full of menace for Highland people. The battle was over, but the killing was not.The roads into the town from the east were scattered with the bodies of men, women and children cut down at random by his advancing dragoons, while on the battlefield, parties of infantry, encouraged by their officers, covered themselves in blood as they ranged the ground stabbing or hacking to death any enemy wounded who caught their attention.
The day after the battle, patrols were sent back to the area and found and butchered 70 more injured Jacobites. And on the day after that, another 72 were discovered and executed, 32 of them being deliberately burnt alive as they sheltered in a barn at Leanach “


That was the battle of Culloden and while things have clamed down a bit this ancient battle line is now re drawn and ascrucial for Gordon Brown as it is for the hopes of the English right.

New Labour are seriously scared about the upcoming Scottish local elections on May the 3rd. We can tell this from the cavalcades of heavy weights that have been dispatched to the chilly land o` the Jocks recently to plead the Unionist cause. Alec Salmonella welcomed ( boomerang) Blair`s attention as his best weapon post Iraq but the Prez rarely blinks and he is busy assuring the Glasgow Herald that for countries the size of England and Scotland (?) to separate was “regressive and old fashioned”. He does however concede that these elections are” huge and fundamentally important “, but has to be careful . Something the Labour position can be seen from his description of the SNP as an “£8 bn. Betting slip” , what about the other £12bn?He is quick to remind us down here that “England also benefit from the Union” and must not overly criticise the devolved settlement by implication, “We must not just point ou the disasters of independence” .I have though for some time that the most pivotal shift in British politics was that of the English from Unionists to Nationalists and for Labour it brings a horrifying prospect of the end of Socialism under the first past the post system. For us , the English , there is much to hope for . The means to decide our own destiny in Europe , the freedom to settle the social ills that Celtic powered socialism have wrought upon us , a fiscal bonanza and more important than all of this the chance to rediscover a pride in our heritage as free Englishmen and women. I am going to try to do a survey of where we are now and then look forward to the prize on offer. As ever the forces of established interest are ranged against the people’s wishes but the cracks are now so wide that they cannot , simply cannot , be papered over indefinitely .I may well have to go and rest in the scented garden of Miss Smack by the time I`ve finished but duty calls .

Counting up the money

The current English taxpayer’s subsidy to the Scottish Exchequer is some £20 billion per year and growing, which approximately equates to over £1,000 per English taxpayer. Public spending in Scotland is now 23%, (Government spending of £5,271 per head in Scotland), above the English average. In Northern Ireland the figure is 39%, (£5,939 per head), and 18%, (£5,052 per head), in Wales. This compares with a figure of £4,283 for England. If the subsidies to all parts of the United Kingdom were taken into account it is likely that each English taxpayer is paying £3,000 each year to subsidise the other parts of the former United Kingdom. If the subsidy to the European Union was taken into account, that figure would rise to over £4000 every year.
We know of course that the SNP have convinced the Scottish that without the encumbrance the English they will be like either Norway( Oil ) or failing that the EU will bal them out like Eire. The oil point revenue is highly questionable, especially as the Shetlands may well pull out .I have no doubt that behind all the misty moors and tartan waffle this is the real calculation going on. The fact that Scottish people live such poor lives despite huge subsidy shows how worthless dead state money is to the economy and we have to fair . There is also dim sense that they cannot go on living like serfs and must take control of their destiny . I think they are quite right

That Famous Question

Tam Dalyell, the Labour MP for West-Lothian asked it, and its still the neatest way to put the problem ‘Why should the representative from West Lothian (or any other Scottish constituency, for that matter) be able to sit in the Westminster Parliament and vote on parochial matters affecting the English, when the English members who sat in the same parliament (are) entirely unable to vote on parochial matters affecting the Scots, for those matters (are) now to be considered by Scotland’s own parliament?’
The House of Commons currently has 659 members with only 529 parliamentary seats allocated to England. While England does not have a national assembly, on really democratic principles, England should have greater representation than the devolved nations, but should certainly at worst should not have lesser representation.
In fact the system discriminates heavily against England and although England represents c. 86.3% of the population of the former United Kingdom and accordingly England should therefore have 569 seats in the House of Commons, while in reality, it is 40 seats short of its minimum proper representation. At present nearly 20% of the seats in the House of Commons have been allocated to c. 13.8% of the population of the former United Kingdom. This means that the devolved parts of the United Kingdom, in addition to having their own assembly, are nearly 50% over represented in Westminster. Whereas on any fair answer to the West-Lothian question they should be substantially under-represented at Westminster.

We talk nowadays about the “democratic deficits “ but it is worth reminding ourselves to what extent we are mistreated in England . As each new problem . Fees ., Road tax and so on crops up the problem will open up like a raw wound . It is clear we cannot stop where we are .

The Nation that was Britain

Thomas Carlyle writing from his home in Dumfriesshire competed his address with “ North Britain?”, and in the Victorian period the English and most Scots completely bought into the idea of British one nation . There were destinies to be found abroad . A white man’s burden to pick up and great commercial opportunities for the Scots both in London and in the empire.”. We can see that the English used this ruse to dominate the “Nation” by the premierships of Macmillan, Home Roseberry, Campbell Bannerman, Balfour and the Ulster Scot Bonar law .Britain” itself was an invention dug up from pre Roman times to give some sense wholeness to the politically expediency of the union of two countries 300 years ago Gordon brown was prominent in the cabinet that sought to diffuse nationalism in Scotland with an act of constitutional vandalism without equal the current devolved parliaments. The Liberal Democrats were his partners in cynical manoeuvring and we mustn’t forget that their strength has great ties with the outlying Celtic regions and the attitude of Ming will be crucial to the future in Scotland if there is to be a pro independence coalition as there may well be .

WALES

Welsh National Assembly achieved a very dubious mandate (c 25%) from a tiny majority of voters in a poorly attended referendum, Should the Welsh prefer to be independent I would hope that such independence was "independence under the Crown" at least, thus maintaining our historical association with the people of Wales The position of Monmouthshire in this context is anomalous, as historically it had been part of England until recent boundary re-organisation and may require special treatment Historically, since Medieval times, Wales has been an integral part of England .On the basis that the Welsh National Assembly is dissolved and Wales is represented in parliament and subsidised on a principle of absolute equality with England I personally would like to continue to be connected with the principality. The very different relationship between the countries should not at least be conflated into one out of bureaucratic convenience.



Where we are now


The latest ICM poll put support for independence in Scotland at 52% and this is the really important news .“68% of the English support the idea of having a parliament for ourselves.” So we must turn away from staring balefully at Hadrian’s wall and look at ourselves and what has happened to us .. What has happened is this . Britain was never more than an extension of England for us and the speed with which all that affection has disappeared is because it has quite easily settled on its true home “England “. It may well be that eventually it is from England the break will come especially if Labour seek to impose its legislative will on England with a programme entirely reliant on the fifty or so seats they have in the their client state. The position elect orally is tricky . The SNP have 33% a lead over Labour on 31%. The Lib Dems may well hold the balance of power but they are wedded to the Nationalist cause and cannot act entirely for the cynical good of the Westminster Party . Ming is currently standing firm but this is a fractious and fast moving position . The local elections if they are bad for the labour Party will be the proof that it “Can” be done. For the Liberal Democrats to sit on the fence will be commensurately more difficult . Personally I see the idea of ruling England with Scottish votes becoming the crow bar between the counties but the process could be a lot quicker.

Well that’s enough or today I think . Tomorrow its.

1 False reasons for the Union
2 Britain is no nationality (answering Trevor Phillips )
3 What is Englishness
4 The forbidding of Englishness


I appreciate that this is not exactly fresh and minty stuff but I hope it will be a good summary as we approach the Local elections.

48 comments:

David Allen said...

An interesting piece in the Sunday Times today about how people self-identify: it seems that most non-white Britons feel more comfortable with a hybrid label like 'British Asian' or whatever. For them, it is the British handle which allows for that covalent bond between their ethicity or national/ cultural background and their shared citizenship with white Britons or those with several generations of heritage in this country. As we edge towards a new constitutional settlement, which we surely must, we need to find a way to avoid these groups (for whom integration must be a societal priority)falling between the stools of 'English', 'Welsh' and 'Scttish'.

istanbultory said...

The assault on our way of life- and most particularly, the Union- under Labour is a staggering act of cultural and economic vandalism. It’s not surprising, therefore that NuLabour, in the absence of any real policy successes, regards devolution as one of its greatest achievements. Not surprisng when you consider that currently, the UK government has a Scottish prime minister (TB was born in Edinburgh) , a Scottish lord chancellor, a Scottish chancellor of the exchequer, a Scottish Defence Secretary, a Scottish home secretary, a Scottish secretary of state for trade and industry, a Scottish minister for immigration and citizenship, a Scottish transport secretary.


N, a word of caution about matters statistical. The number of 52% in support of independence can be deceptive. In an ICM opinion poll for The Scotsman published on the 16th January 2007, the 300th anniversary of the Act of Union's approval by the Scottish Parliament, only 32 per cent of Scots agreed that the Union should break up- with Scotland and Wales each gaining their independence. The same poll found that 42 per cent of the 18-24 age group believed the Union has had a positive impact on Scotland, while only 19 per cent felt it had been negative. Independence in Scotland is not a foregone conclusion.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=77432007

electro-kevin said...

I notice that my nationalistic hackles are rising and that the antipathy from the Celts is really beginning to grate on me. This is most evident during sporting events etc where we are derided as being bigotted and arrogant. Yet we, the English, are the only ones able to field truly multi-ethnic teams.

Another issue is the over representation of Scots in the broadcast media. I'm convinced that the disproportionate allocation of power and the continual degrading of our country is linked.

And please spare me the guilt trip about what the Scots did for Empire - if Jimmy wants to take credit, then Jimmy must also take blame AND his share of Poles, Somalians, Kosovans ...

electro-kevin said...

And I'm not so sure about the allegedly lower standar of living in the North. My relatives in Newcastle have always enjoyed a better quality of life. My equals in the rail industry in Scotland live in massive houses and drive new 4x4 vehicles.

Newmania said...

David Roger Scruton puts that the other way which is that the reaons English Asian is not possible is becaue English is a nationality wheras Britain is a political construct . By inference you have all the entitlements but "none of the responsibilities." This is edcatly the problem Trevor Phillips is concerned about and I do not see it as a problem . It puts the question directly to ethnically different groups , do they want to belong or not ?

If they do, they have to decide to partcipate fully in the country they are living in and not palm that cocuntry of by a blank cheque called "Britain" a country to which noone has any loyalty least of all them.

Newmania said...

IT it is a cake you can slice in may ways but the what has happened is this . It was hoped the Scots could be bought off with English money and thereby save the double socialist vote . It has not worked . Despite being absurdly subsidised , having a double helping of political influence the Scots still want to be there own country.

It can hardly surprise us that some of them are prepared to go along with the current ridiculously privileged position , that was the point of it . What is surprising is that despite this obvious gerrymandering there is still a determined will towards self government.
As I have also said however the main enthusiasm for independence is now coming from England and this can only go on as will the withdrawal from notions of Britishness which once animated the Conservative Party

Newmania said...

IT it is a cake you can slice in may ways but the what has happened is this . It was hoped the Scots could be bought off with English money and thereby save the double socialist vote . It has not worked . Despite being absurdly subsidised , having a double helping of political influence the Scots still want to be there own country.

It can hardly surprise us that some of them are prepared to go along with the current ridiculously privileged position , that was the point of it . What is surprising is that despite this obvious gerrymandering there is still a determined will towards self government.
As I have also said however the main enthusiasm for independence is now coming from England and this can only go on as will the withdrawal from notions of Britishness which once animated the Conservative Party

Newmania said...

Kevin , you are quite rifght that the Celtic Fringe is hopelessly overrepresenred in politica as well as the media . The English middleclasses are a despised group and English nationalsim or etnicity is a despised one in our own country.
I agree by the way that house prices dwarf salary differentials in the North if you are well employed

Duncan Webster said...

A very well put together post on an important issue to all UK residents. My proposal is faily simple:
1. Keep the assemblies already setup.
2. Axe the local MSPs etc
3. In Westminster, have 2 or 3 days per week on UK issues(ie non-devolved matters), eg foreign, crime etc.
4. In the local assemblies, the MPs debate their devolved issues.

It wouldnt be perfect either, but would reduce a large matter of duplication, and ensure Westminster still retained its national decision making authority.

Newmania said...

No Duncan that is bollocks we are a country not a set or regions and that , which is what Prescott wanted to palm us off with, is absolutely unacceptable.

If i understand you correctly which I`m not sure i do ...?

electro-kevin said...

Thanks to all for clarifying.

Duncan, would your proposal eradicate the non-reciprocal arrangement whereby Scots can vote on English matters ? I'd go for that eagerly.

Let's not underestimate the damage that films such as Braveheart and Rob Roy have done us - not to say anything of the English villain in such films as Star Wars ... all to please and reinforce American prejudices and populism. There seems a desperation for some English and many American people to search for their own Celtic lineage - however tenuous - and don tartan kilts. Has this childish sentiment pervaded Westminster and cosy whisky gatherings ... parliamentary voting ?

The BBC seem to be taken in by it too.

A superfluous, but relevent point I think with regard to the sub-conscious forces at work.

I was happy to go along with the national arrangement and hadn't thought of Britishness as a political construct ... until recently. I was happy to let the Scots take over New Year and ignore their apparent schadenfraud in our misfortunes. I still like my Scottish friends, but now we can see the damage being done to us and the disparity of public services I don't care much for the Union anymore.

David Allen said...

Calm down, Newmania! (I think you have misunderstood Duncan). His suggestion means that we get rid of a whole raft of politicos (MSPs and MAs) and that they are replaced by the current Scottish/ Welsh Westminster MPS sitting in Edinburgh, Cardiff for most of the week as Scottish/ Welsh parliaments (leaving English MPs to sit at Westminster or wherever as an English parliament)then joining their English MP colleagues at Westminster for part of the time to sit as a UK parliament deciding the defence, foreign affairs etc. This creates a truly federal structure, hopefully sufficiently meeting the nationalist aspirations of Scots, Welsh and English, whilst retaining the UK. It also meets those aspirations without the massive burden of additional bloated bureaucracies and even more salaried politicians and all their retainers....

The Schlong formerly belonging to Mr Hitchens said...

A federal structure inevitably means the end of the union as the different parts of the federation would gradually try to acquire more and more power.What will remain? Sweet FA. In any case, a federal UK would still be dominated (by sheer weight of numbers) by the English. Why would the Welsh and Scots sign up for such a construct?

Newmania said...

I see David thanks for that I was wondering ..yes that isn`t a bad interim idea but for thre latter reason Mr.. Sclong states it could not last the very First thing that would be a problem is that the Scots want to go further into Europe and the English do not .
This would have been good idea in the first place but the Scottish nationalists would never have gone for it because they knew that once you have a parliament it inevitably creates its own momentum , There is no way to go back now .

The only way forward is to move towards independence . It has gone far to far for any other answer. The English and the Scottish do not want to be part of the same country.

To be honest , its a simple as that.


Kevin I think your ideas are very typical and I see no reasons why we cannot go back to the old friendly rivalry once this ridiculous position has been dealt with

mutleythedog said...

Kick em all out I say and Yorkshire too!

Newmania said...

That thought has occurred to me Mutley...seriously

Anonymous said...

A report from the George Orwell Lecture at Birkbeck College given by the journalist (and Cambridge double first) Neal Ascherson, Scottish jouranlist. Chaired by Sir Bernard Crick among other things George Orwell’s biographer and a democratic socialist. Apparently Eric Hobswaun was present and a BBC historian.



The lecture was called Homo Britannicus, Scotophobia and all that.



Two Campaign English Parliament members attended expecting to get our blood pressure raised. In fact it was a well reasoned statement of where we are politically. Ascherson said that Scotophobia (I would prefer it spelled Scottophobia for obvious reasons) was whipped up by the press and did not exist but that English awareness of the inequalities conferred by devolution was rising and was justified. He said what was happening was not Scotophobia but Anglophilia. He stated that he was an old acquaintance of Gordon Brown and had discussed the values of Britishness with him. The value of tolerance was raised and NA informed GB that this was an English virtue not a British one. GB was apparently unimpresssed. NA also referred to the self deception customary in high places and that hypocrisy was best exposed by irony. He did not agree that civic and ethnic nationalism were different but different ends of one spectrum.

.

With regard to Britain and Britishness he likened the current political emotion in England to that of the feeling in Austria just before the fall of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. All the component peoples knew who they were but the Austrians suddenly needed to redefine their identity. Ascherson's presentation was quite wide ranging, but one of his themes was the possibility that a future (implicitly Tory) Westminster government might deliberately bring about confrontation and deadlock with Holyrood to provide an excuse to end the Union and blame it on the Scots. This he said, was pretty much what happened with the Czechoslovakian "velvet divorce", the Slovaks were, he averred, not looking to end the their union, but for greater autonomy within it, but the Czech leader had different ideas. He engineered the break up of Czechoslovakia using the naivety of his equivalent Slovak politician.



He referred to Britishness as a Victorian gentleman’s invention. In other words a set of people of the middle and upper classes who had common values regardless of whether they originated from E, W or S.



He stated that the people of Scotland were justified in wanting to run their own affairs and mentioned the call for independence.



I introduced myself as a CEP member and asked him whether he thought that it was appropriate for any such negotiations to take place between a Westminster MP representing a Scottish constituency and also possibly the British PM and the Scottish Executive. He replied that it was perfectly right. I suspect he meant legally rather than morally. He asked me whether I/we agreed with regional devolution. I replied somewhat heatedly that regionalisation in England was a 20th Century artefact that had no basis in England’s culture or history. A voice from the back shouted out about 1,000 years of Anglo-Saxon regionalisation. I don’t know whether this was Wessex Man or was referring to the counties and shires.



There followed some discussion about ethnic identity. How you can be Scottish-Asian etc but only British-Asian in England. A number of people stated that they were Australian or a New Zealander and were British! (Why they think this perceived problem only applies to England I don’t know.)



The BBC representative came out with the comment that they could not accept Englishness as a concept. (although they accept Scottishness and Welshness). The BBC were praised for carefully distinguishing what was Scottish or Welsh I very nearly reminded them of their programme on David Starkey’s book the English monarchy that they re-badged British.



My colleague put it to him that no machiavellian Tory plot was required, because eventual conflict was built into the 1998 asymmetric devolution arrangements, and that it is just as probable that such a tactic will be used by Alex Salmond, for the same reason. He conceded that there were problems with devolution, but said he thought it could work. He also conceded that Salmond might indeed behave as suggested, but said that his purpose was to look at the question from an English perspective.



My colleague added that he was a CEP member, wanted an English Parliament either within or without the Union, and did not much care which. Ascherson said there were problems about an English Parliament within the Union, citing (strangely) an English determination to have their Parliament at Westminster. This led to some fairly unfocussed discussion about where an EP might be established, with Bernard Crick, in the background, suggesting the House of Lords. I thought this notable. I doubt he is a supporter, but it seems to imply that, like Rees Mogg, he recognises that an EP is no longer entirely unthinkable.



I rather doubt that Ascherson really thinks that the Tories might scheme to end the union. My quess is that this is just journalistic instinct for finding an interesting angle (and perhaps a left-wing instinct to prepare the ground to blame the Tories if/when the devolution project goes completely pear shaped), but some of you may live in hope!



There were, inevitably, a couple of people asserting their regional identity over their English identity. We let them live! I gave Ascherson my card at the end and he said that he had been meaning to get in touch with us. We spoke to a number of people afterwards over a glass of wine. I have to say that unlike a few years ago our presence was not greeted with sharp intakes of breaths of disapproval but as an expected adjunct to the discussion.



Was it worth going? I think so, even though most of the audience were so elderly they made us feel young. (It was noted afterwards that Valentine’s Evening was not a good date to attract students as there were Valentine’s discos etc). Crick, Ascherson and others are establishment figures. Two CEP members with questions/comments, out of perhaps six or eight participants from the audience, has to be noticed.

www.thecep.org.uk

Newmania said...

Thanks anon . there is qwuite a bit in tyere i do not agree with in particular that there is plot in england to end the union and blame it on the Scots. There is no need to blame it on anyone and it has been drive for years by the Scots until,recently

the Scots are opretyy unpoppular at the mkment but thta would soon disappear with end of the democratic and finacila defacit

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5h4PFBuzvw

Have a lok at this. Great.

Show of Hands Roots

Roots

Now its been twenty-five years or more
Ive roamed this land from shore to shore
From Tyne to Tamar, Severn to Thames
From Moor to Vale from Peak to Fen
Played in cafes and pubs and bars
Ive stood in the street with my old guitar
But Id be richer than all the rest
If I had a pound for each request
For Duelling Banjos American Pie
Its enough to make you cry
Rule Britannia or Swing low
Are they the only songs the English know?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Theyre never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - they need roots

After the speeches when the cakes been cut
The discos over and the bar is shut
At christening, birthday, wedding or wake
What can we sing until the morning breaks
When the Indian, Asians, Afro, Celts
Its in their blood and below the belt
Theyre playing and dancing all night long
So what have they got right that weve got wrong?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots we need roots

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
Weve lost more than well ever know
Round the rocky shores of England

And a minister said his vision of hell
Is three folk singers in a pub near Wells
Well Ive got a vision of urban sprawl
Its pubs where no one ever sings at all
And everyone stares at a great big screen
Over-paid soccer stars, prancing teens
Australian soap, American rap
Estuary English, baseball caps
And we learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk
Without our stories or our songs
How will we know where weve come from?
Ive lost St George in the Union Jack
Its my flag too and I want it back

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots we need roots

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
Weve lost more than well ever know
Round the rocky shores of England

wife in the north said...

I can't get hold of you any other way than this since I can't seem to see an e-mail link. Thanks for your post. I am relying on you to defend me. OK?
wifey

Winchester whisperer said...

While it's easy to say, "Go your own way, Scotland", I think it would be a huge mistake to divide our country again. Think of all the time and money spent on wars with Scotland in the past. They'd join the Euro and that would probably become an alternative currency in the north of England (start of the rot). Can you name me any successful divided island?

Ms Smack said...

:) you know you're always welcome, sugar.

Newmania said...

Can you name me any successful divided island?

Can`t think of a comparable one but really what diference does the island bit make there are more and more small countries Wichester I `m sure you will admit we cannot go on as we are

Newmania said...

Excellent a visit from wifey I`m sort of a secomd dgree celebrity.

I wouldn`t rely on me wife but I don`t think many people can do what you do

Istanbul Tory said...

Less wifey, more smack, mr N. I feel I speak for many in the Tory blogging community on this vital question.....

Newmania said...

Good for you IT although smack amnd wifey combined might suit me nicely

Anonymous said...

Can you name me any successful divided island?


New Zealand, you p.c. anti English fascist hampton!! The North and South islands get on well.

Other than that, drop dead you plank!

Newmania said...

Now now anon , Winchester wasn`t being anti English other than extremely politely and New Zealand is actually two islands isn`t it ( three?). Not relevant anyway

I don`t see the difference Island or not .Couldn`t care less really and I am going to go on to say why it is that we positively need a new sense of what we are quite aside form the present difficulty of being ripped off by the Scots and Socilaists

I think its a positive opportunity for England and the English to pull together and rediscover pride in what we are .

I want us to get on well with the Scots who are lovely people if they haven`t got their hands in your pocket !!

Ho ho

Anonymous said...

My wife's a Scot. Sadly the rumour about them is not true.

Ellee said...

Newmania, you now have wifey and smack in hot pursuit of your favours, I am very impressed.

electro-kevin said...

Aye, you're becoming something of a stud Newmania.

My thanks to the two who contributed anonymously here earlier. Very good and very humbling.

How is PH going to manage without his Schlong ???

CityUnslicker said...

A good post N.

There are wider questions to think about post-settlement too. Like the Euro, National Defence, Seat at the UN and so forth.

Myself I am happy to tell the UN to sod off; useless as it is for our needs in 2007. The Euro will probably fail before our Union does.

Still, the geopolitical angle should not always be lost in the minutiae of how it will all work.

Croydonian said...

Divided islands - well, it depends on whether one is prepared to define the Eurasian and American land masses as islands...

Some divided islands - Ireland, Cyprus, Hispaniola and Papua. In the case of the first three, there is a long standing and strong ethnic / cultural / linguistic divide, and Papua was a colonial carve up between the Dutch, Germans and us. In none of these cases could it be expected that a united island would necessarily be a happier one.

Newmania said...

Wow you just don`t ask Croydonian a question like that do you and a succinct point .

CU The treaties that exist would automaticaly revert to the seperate entities so we wouldn`t be in a position of starting from a clean sheet if thats what you mean. Clearly the euro sceptic cause would be greatly helped by losing Scotland from the equation and we would have to see where that goes .

I would anticipate a very close cooperation between the countries miliatarily which is rather a different thing.Nato is still the only organisation that counts for our defence IMHO

Duncan Webster said...

Well I still stick to my original idea. We are not going to eradicate the regional assemblies, and I don't want Scotland etc to have independence.

The solution I mentioned would eradicate an additional costly and unnecessary later of politicians, eg msps. Similarly it would allow English matters to be decided by the English MPs on 'local day'. What else do we want devolution reform to achieve?

Newmania said...

I not at all sure I know what you are talking about now Duncan . Are you suggesting that Scotland and Wales can continue to suck on the English tax payer against the wishes of the majority of the English who want indepenence. Are you then suggesting that while Scotland and Wales are going to be countries we will be a collection of powerless regions as required by the EU specificallty for the purposes of convincing ther English they do not exist?

Why can England not be a country and what on earth is the point of being attached to Scotland when all that hapens is they take our money and vote for the Socialists. Why do you not want Scotland to be independent , what have you got against them. It is clearly what they want

You are saying exactly what Precott said as I first thought.This is Labour Policy.To cheat and lie to the English for cynical immediate electoral advantage and to stick, broken into regions ,in Europe where they can be exploited forever.

There is no way that will do no way at all

mutleythedog said...

wife in the north said...

I can't get hold of you any other way than this since I can't seem to see an e-mail link. Thanks for your post. I am relying on you to defend me. OK?
wifey


Its Ok Mr N - I have posted her a swift rebuff - she won't be back to impugn your honesty!

Newmania said...

Oh dear I wonder what Mutley has done , a bad thing methinks

mutleythedog said...

Newmania said...

Oh dear I wonder what Mutley has done , a bad thing methinks

8:38 PM


Only joking - what with her and Britains next internet superstar, Ms Smack, we are getting quite famous.... hello don't say it....

Newmania said...

You are,I wish only for a quite life of scholarly contemplation , with perhaps a jacuzzi drugs and bitches after matins .

Amen

mutleythedog said...

Newmania said...

You are,I wish only for a quite life of scholarly contemplation , with perhaps a jacuzzi drugs and bitches after matins .


That is similar to me a jacuzzi full of drugs, my sister if a bitch so that counts and some martinis!! I like istanbultory don't you?

Istanbul Tory said...

N, good tidings from tomorrows "Grauniad" of all places. For a Guardian/ICM poll suggests the Conservatives could win a working majority at the next general election. A 50 seat majority on the current figures with Labour on a share of the vote not seen since 1983.....

Mutley, Ms Smack has raised all our expectations. As is probably her wont. The video comes out when...?

N, in the event of Scottish independence, Scotland would not automatically enter the EU. If England together with Wales and NI, were to continue as the UK, the "post-scottish" UK state would continue to be an EU member state. To put it another way, the rump UK state would inherit membership of the EU.

electro-kevin said...

I don't doubt you're right there IT.

Roll on death.

Newmania said...

IT speak of the devil .Yes I find I do tend to agree with you about most things . Dale has already done that IT , you have to be up pretty early to beat him to good news. I am very very glad to hear it though, there was a rather dismal poll recently and I do tend to take them all as gospel.Why on earth would you ..but I do . it is an important breakthrough and should terrify Labour. It will also vindicate David Cameron which is a good thing

Is that so on the EU , well the stated policy of the SNP is independence in Europe so I suppose it makes little difference. I would prefer myself that England had a chance to get out . I `m far from convinced that England would vote that way. I would unless significant reform was on the table and I mean " Root and branch"


Why would that ever happen ?

I don`t actually understand why Scotland would not be tied by treaties that Scotland formerly was tied to by seperating but I `m sure you do .

Any way I `m busy trying to make my fortune as Husband of the South.
what a brilliant scheme eh .

Newmania said...

don't doubt you're right there IT.

Roll on death.

Oh come on EK this is not like you there are plenty of silver linings and I hope that England would be able to set a lot of things straight. How can a man who has been dragged though the mud by ghurkas be bothered by a few Euros ?

Chin up . Chest out

oh fuck it lets give up...

mutleythedog said...


Any way I `m busy trying to make my fortune as Husband of the South.
what a brilliant scheme eh .


I Shall be posting as Dog of the West!!

mutleythedog said...


Mutley, Ms Smack has raised all our expectations. As is probably her wont. The video comes out when...?


Following a substantial re-edit - as it turns out the Gnome was actually on 14....

Newmania said...

Gnome was actually on 14....
What ?

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