Wednesday, January 16, 2008

Vote Clegg Get Brown

I have been exchanging views with Mr. Cicero`s songs , quite an erudite blog from a Liberal perspective but as partisan as Liberals usually are whilst holding their noses at the partisanship of others. In doing so I have synthesised some of my complaints about the Liberal Party( as Clegg now calls them). I find as we are all socially Liberal more or less the differences are stark only abroad especially on the EU. On domestic policy they are somewhat to the left old the Blairites in reality and cannot be taken seriously as Libertarian when they want to take all your money away and redistribute it to worthy causes of their own choosing. On Academies for example Blair started to try and introduce independence .Brown has dropped it but the Liberals would retain strategic Council control which is , as I say , left of Blair and a nothing Policy really . This shade of opinion is happily contained within the Labour party and to some extent in the Conservative Party so there is little to add. I have reorganised into answers to accusations although the context was different. I t cannot be said often enough , vote Clegg , get brown , Vote Clegg get Brown vote Clegg get Brown ....

Liberals are as patriotic as anyone :
Liberals do care less about the people of this country specifically which they would call “a “little Englander” attitude . The reason for this is that the Liberal party embraces , to a greater extent , ‘Liberalism’ which claims you derive values from your humanity. Thus it loves the hated human rights act , and the minimum wage and the thought of a world order in which Europe has a part (nightmare …See Ulrick Hech in the Guardian today) The English are usually communitarian , to put it simply , believing that values emanate from specific communities and that a country is like a club into which you pay in some sense .
This is why on the left and right there is great suspicion of immigration whereas Liberal think it is a simply wonderful thing and applaud the end of the ties and bonds that once were the nation This universalism even extends to animals who many Liberals appear to believe are people in little furry coats .
A communitarian attitude is far less prone to subscribing activities enshrined in a community halal butchery poses a problem for you , not us . Hunting you loathe we are indifferent. You ban it , we leave it whatever we think of the practice .

Liberals support the US and NATO:
You would not support the US in Iraq you would have dropped the alliance . Words mean nothing . You would have imperilled our defence and that is one reason above all you will always be a small party .You did not want to renew Trident either (listen to Huhne on that …and listen to him attacking Clegg). You cannot , in short , be trusted. This makes you very popular in some circles but they are fickle fashion voters. Your support for NATO is weak (you cannot have it both ways ) despite the fact that NATO has delivered peace while the EU cannot even sort out its own back yard.
This is the value of strong nation states acting intergovernmentaly . English lives will never be lost ‘only’ to save Poles they will be risked only for their countrymen. You see little difference between Watford and Warsaw , I do .You are concerned with bureaucracies not honour or loyalty. You applaud extreme localism like the Cornish so as to undermining this national loyalty but this is an illusion and the seeming of independence only.

The EU is a binary choice and a referendum to be real would only allow in or out . Ming s Position was therefore honest and Camerons is not :

You always say the EU can be reformed have you changed your mind then ? It cannot be by you certainly because you have no stomach for it and also because you are dishonest about you motives which are actually super national. You say the cost is huge but you have absolutely no idea if that is true . I have seen convincing arguments made to the contrary and the growth of Euro scepticism has y followed the decreasing relative importance of Europe as a market. Others manage well. Increasing democratic control of Brussels is not the way because that is further establishing a European state which we do not want , we do not want federalism we wish to remain a country and providing legitimacy for the EU would be even worse .That is why Polly Toynbee that hater of the English is so keen . No it should move back to being a trade association of independent states as it was sold to the British in the first place . If that is not possible and the other way is towards “Ever close union “…then we are heading for a the completion of your project to outlaw the country and I would say even violence along the way from the vast majority who will rightly regard this as treason….All the more reason why we must have a referendum.

We are accused of being socialists as well as of being Conservatives:
You are not accused of being Conservatives only Socialists. Your problem is this , the ‘social’ Conservatism you talk about is in the past. Liberals had a role in the 20th century on gay rights and women’s rights and so on. Various views about tinkering with the result do not justify a Party . Individual Liberty you have relinquished to the Conservatives and you are bugger all use in defending smoking , pubs , hunting if helpful on ID . Even on Surveillance you are not much good . None of the trenchant criticism that emerges form our ranks does from yours . You are noticeably bossy locally . This lack of a role domestically is why such great prominence is given to the rest of the world where the focus of Liberal attention has drifted. That is why the EU is so central , Clegg is like an old Heathite Tory in many ways .

Liberals Do Not Exist To make Alliances We Have Principles
I do not say anything about your beliefs which are , in general , far less important than you seem to think. I only say you have a history of duplicity and deal making , ( it comes with the territory to be fair ) your membership will not have an alliance with the Conservatives so you will do a deal with Brown. There you will force PR and engineer so as to establish a thousand year Reich of the centre left such as has appeared elsewhere in Europe. Given the momentous possibility all those who are wavering and thinking of supporting the Liberals must be aware of the realities of their position In the absence of undertakings to the contrary it will be justifiably assumed to be where the shortest and only route to power . It is quite reasonable that this fact should be advertised.

Vote Clegg get Brown


Old BE said...

Vote anything apart from Tory, get Brown. Sorry non-Tories, it's hold-your-nose-and-vote-tactically time.

Newmania said...

Well I do think so Ed I cant see what logic there is for any other conclusion

Anonymous said...

"Liberals do care less about the people of this country specifically which they would call “a “little Englander” attitude...‘Liberalism’ which claims you derive values from your humanity. Thus it loves the hated human rights act , and the minimum wage and the thought of a world order in which Europe has a part" (Newmania)

That's true of Libdems, n, but it isn't true of centre right Liberals like me - and there are plenty of us. Many of us now support Cameron and are deserting the libdems in droves.

We're freedom loving people who love our country and its proud heritage and detest what nulab and the EU have done to it.

Yes, we are anti-war protestors against what we believe to be the illegal invasion of Iraq, yet we'll never forget the huge sacrifices our parents made fighting for our freedom during WW2 and we would do the same for our country and its people.

Yes, we believe in a platform of rights and a decent standard of living for all working people. That's because, though many of us are professional people, craftsmen and women or self employed, we've not forgotten that we come from working class families - or how poor those families were.

We're one nation people like Cameron. We believe in a small state, minimal interference in citizens' lives and reward for merit and hard work. We believe in the market economy, but one which gives hard working people due reward, which gives pensioners and the genuinely sick or disabled a decent standard of living and all of us a decent standard of health care and education.

It's taken a long time - and a Cameron - for us Liberals to recognise that we've begger all in common with the libdems. Few of us will switch to supporting Nick Clegg - because he and the libdems are so clearly Gordon Brown's and the EU's Patsy.

Auntie Flo'

Newmania said...

Nick Clegg is trying to move the Lib Dems back to the centter Flo but his Party won`t have it . If you lookat the ideas on Academies for example , they are at a point between blair and Brown.

That is not the centre

I like to think of myself as a One Nation Conservative as well , I am concerned that people are not split into different classes .

I am , for exmaple , highly dubious about the role of Public Schools . On the other hadn I am quite right wing on immigration ( so right wing I would like at about the already high levels of 1997....)

Anonymous said...

A picture speaks a thousand words alright, n, and one image of Clegg and Brown at Clegg's first PMQs after his election as party leader certainly did that.
Brown spoke of our.....'pri..vate... meetings' with that stifled orgasmic tone he uses when he's getting his jollies off big time.

Clegg looked up from beneath his sweet little eyelashes and struggled to control his unbridled joy. Yet for a few seconds there it was, the faintest glimmer of a horribly self satisfied smirk spreading across one side of his face. For all the world like love's first bloom.

You could actually feel the delicious muscle tetany spasming through Clegg's jaw as he fought to control the Coitus reservatus for after PMQs.

It reminded me of that poem by horrible Hughes - love-tricks that were the grinding of locks and the cries of an animal dragging a great trap.

Auntie Flo'

Old BE said...

Highly Dubious on Public Schools?

You would rather that nobody got an education instead of some people getting an education? The idea that if you bring brighter kids into a sh1t school they will bring the standard of the school up is bunkum, N.

It is the uniformity of the state system which is its failure not the fact that there are good schools outside the public sector.

Anonymous said...

Nick Clegg is trying to move the Lib Dems back to the centter Flo but his Party won`t have it . If you lookat the ideas on Academies for example , they are at a point between blair and Brown.

That is not the centre (n)

Do you remember the (newspaper?) report which showed that Blair's (alleged) mish mash of conflicting views put him exactly in the centre? That was entirely contrived, or course.

Don't remember where that report was featured, do you?

Auntie Flo'

Anonymous said...

Andy Marr interview with Nick Clegg

Andy Marr: People will sa...

Clegg: No, that's not where I'm coming from at all, Andy, I want to give people power over their lives

Andy Marr: And people will sa...

Clegg: It's important we listen to the people, you see

Andy Marr: Oh, right...

Clegg: No, no it's not right Andy, I want a new consensual approach to politics, one where politcians listen to what people say

Andy Marr: And y...

Clegg: I can't answer that until the people have spoken

Andy Marr: So...

Clegg: Stop leaping to conclusions, Andy, you know I can't tell you my policy until the people tell me what it is

Andy Marr: Can I get a word in please?

Clegg: No, Andy, because I want to tell the people what a caring, listening...honest sort of bloke I am

Andy Marr: Is that a Tony Blair to be histrionic head shake you keep d...

Clegg: Andy, I've told you this is all about to the people.

Andy Marr: Pow..?

Clegg: Yes, that's right, I want to give people power over their lives, that's what I'm all about, that's what the Libdems are all about.

Andy Marr: Power, right, think I've got that, Nick, power, power, power and you're going to GIVE it to us...

Give as in...Christmas present...?

Auntie Flo'

Anonymous said...

Clegg's a typical red head isn't he, irritating and eaten up with repressed anger?

He's also an aristocrat:

Nicholas Peter William Clegg was born in Chalfont St Giles in 1967 and is only one-quarter English.

His mother, Eulalie Hermance van den Wall Bake, is Dutch but was born in Indonesia in 1936. When the Japanese army invaded in 1942, she was sent to a concentration camp with her parents, Hemmy and Louise, and two sisters. They were separated and spent the next three years in terrible conditions. On liberation, the family returned to Holland, but in 1956 Hermance travelled to England, where she met and later married Nick's father, also called Nick.

Nick senior is half-English. His parents, who married in 1932, were Hugh Anthony Clegg, who at the time of his wedding was a sub-editor on British Medical Journal (a title he eventually edited for the best part of 35 years), and Kira Engelhardt.

Rather disingenuously, the marriage certificate describes her father, Arthur von Engelhardt, as a "landowner". This may have been true, but Kira's lineage is far nobler than that - she was Baroness Kira von Engelhardt, whose mother, Alexandra Moullen, was the daughter of the former Attorney General of the Imperial Russian senate, Ignaty Zakrevsky.

Hmmm, like him even less now, another bloody champagne socialist

Did you notice that in the Marr interview when Marr said he was like Cameron (I should bl**dy cocoa), Clegg began saying "our backgrounds are the same", then stopped himself? Given that he's a Russian aristo, no wonder.

Auntie Flo'

Anonymous said...

Bloody Nora, it gets worse, he related to a spy:

Through this impressive lineage, there is a connection to Baroness Moura Budberg, Nick Clegg senior's great aunt.

This Russian writer was strongly suspected of spying for both British Intelligence and the Soviet Union after the fall of Tsar Nicholas II.

Apart from being described by the British Embassy in Moscow as "a very dangerous woman", she was also the mistress of HG Wells, Maxim Gorky and Robert Bruce Lockhart, a famous British spy working in Moscow. Perhaps this is where Nick Clegg junior's political ambitious came from.

There seems to be a massive fibber in the other side.

We've been here before, haven't we?

Auntie Flo'

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