Sunday, March 14, 2010

Is The Cameroon Project Flawed ?

I have been supporting Janet Dalet against Cameroon courtier Finkelstein
Two links there to the debate , the nub of La Daley`s point is this

"Some of the chief tenets of the Tory Modernisation doctrine which Populus embraced were contained in Lord Ashcroft’s report “Smell the Coffee”.
One of these, which I have had reiterated to me with much fervour over the past few years, runs as follows: “We in the Tory party have to drop all those issues (immigration, Europe, etc) that were previously strongly associated with us because our traditional image is so hated by the voters.”
The definitive proof of this particular hatred for the Tories was that when voters were presented with Conservative policies that were not identified with the party, they approved of them.
But when told that these were “Conservative” policies, they rejected them. Hence, the existing Conservative “brand” was irretrievably damaged.
What the Ashcroft report did not mention was the truth imparted to me by an executive of a major polling organisation: the very same principle applied to Labour.
When the public was offered what were in fact Labour policies but which were not idenitified as such, they approved of them. When told that these were official Labour policies, they said they disliked them. So where exactly does that leave us?"

Fink scoffs but I think she has a point
.....You have not answered JD`s central point which is that there has been a drift away from both main Parties which was presented as a specifically Conservative brand problem . You claim,for example, that poor election results in themselves , demonstrate that the sort of Conservative Party presided over by say John Major had become unelectable . Really ?
The Conservatives in 1992 received the most total votes ever for any political party in any UK general election .Can you tell me what , aside from ERM , New Labour and a split over Europe , had really changed between 92 and 97 ? What , shall we say, brand issues , had arisen that previously lay undiscovered ? An alternative reading of the wilderness years is that as New Labour morphed like a moonlit lycanthrope into Old Labour the long false boom enabled the mirage of European services and US taxes to appear sustainable

The problem is that the sort of iconic nasty policies you refer to , immigration, Euro scepticism are wildly popular according to those pesky polls, hence the embarrassment of the elite at the referendum on the horizon. My suspicion is that it is more a question of swapping voters than gaining them on social policy .Furthermore surveys have shown a consistent trend away from the old high tax big state consensus in which the Cameron project was conceived .

You seem to be suggesting ,then, that a decontamination of the brand should be achieved with policies that are themselves getting past their sell by date . Does that sound reasonable to you ?

If you recall, the lost Cameron lead was first achieved by Osborne`s announcement on IHT , a rather old fashioned Tory idea , how does that fit with the Heathite Butskellism you seem to prefer? It is also sad but true that the allegation that Cameron is a patrician snob still has legs, are you certain that the despised “anarchy of the middleclass “might not have appeal today.

I like David Cameron but I wonder if the Dinner Party shame of the A/B centre rightist might not loom larger than it is, to one of them. A ( broad definition) working class votes are the big numbers in a winning coalition.

The Conservative Party does have an image problem but it is as much to do with a general tedious conformity our of kilter with the age as the lack of a pinky hue to its clothing .The problem Mr.Finklestein may well be you do you think, for example a Mr. Bercow sets the voters hearts aflame with enthusiasm ?He has been saying all the right things


Electro-Kevin said...


As well as looming energy shortages, overcrowding, currency crisis we have the issue of the Baby Boomers starting to retire. This means a huge pension obligation to be met by the people least able to afford to pay it - their grandchildren.

Why can't they afford a house ? Why ? Because there's a Baby Boomer in it keeping the price up.

Can't afford to save for a house ? Why ? Because all your money is going on paying Baby Boomer's pensions and healthcare - and your pay has been cut because the BBs chose cheap imported labour over yours... and refused to give you an apprenticeship to boot.

So are our most talented and best skilled youngsters going to stick around for the privilege of being electrolite in the battery powering welfare and pensions ?

Dream on.

It doesn't matter who gets in power. I think most people are coming to realise that.

Newmania said...

I cannot agree . I think it maters a great deal , you are a bit more of a utopian than me

It could always get worse

Auntie Flo' said...

My theory about the decline in the Conservatives' standing in the polls is as follows:

1. For whatever reason...the polls are simply wrong.

A Conservative friend and I have been effectively removed from YouGov's political survey panel; initially via faulty (unreturnable) surveys sent to us, then, after I complained, by withdrawal of the political sections form our surveys altogether. That same thing happened a few years back, following Cameron's election as leader, when he received inexplicably poor results from YouGov. Not long afterwards, YouGov admitted to a sampling error.

2. I've been canvassing a Labour marginal with my local CA for some 6 weeks. The canvassing returns we're getting totally undermine the poll results. A member of the Conservative shadow cabinet who canvassed with us last week told us that we're going to win.

3. Canvassing results confirm that support for both parties has dropped, largely as a result of expensegate and other scandals which have hugely undermined the electorate's trust and a perceived lack of differentiation between he parties. Labour support, however, is eroded to a far greater extent than Conservative support has. In my experience, a proportion of Conservatives' supporters are merely uncertain and can be persuaded to reinstate their support, whereas those Labour supporters who have fallen away have largely come to detest Labour and Brown.

4. Growth of support for the Conservatives after Cameron became leader relied far too much on a cult of personality focussed on Cameron. Fate was to prove how risky an approach that was, as Cameron's personality understandably nose dived last year following the tragic death of his son, Ivan. I've seen him speak on two occasions. Cameron prior to his son's death and the Cameron I saw speak some weeks back are two different people. I watched Cameron's personal charisma light up a hall full of people in my town last year, even bolshy local union reps were stunned into respectful silence. So I was shocked when I saw him speak a few weeks ago, he looked like man on automatic pilot, doing and saying all the right things while inside he's utterly devastated and exhausted by grief. It was as though he'd become an automaton, as though a light had gone out.

Should we be surprised by that? What sort of state would any of us be in if our 6 year old child had died; and in such tragic and shocking circumstances? A friend of mine who lost a young child told me he went into a state of clinical shock for a year. The most horrendous time was the month or so leading up to the first anniversary of the child's death. The first time around, my friend had been too shocked and numb to take in the tragic events and to feel his loss, too shocked to even mourn his child as he needed to do. The pressures of a demanding career forced him to suppress his depression and retreat into a state of automated, numbness and denial. Then, as the first anniversary approached, his mask of denial disintegrated and he relived it all, over and over, mourning as he should have done the first time around. For a time, everything, his job, his marriage, his other children, seemed utterly meaningless and he could barely manage to go through the motions.

Thank God, Cameron - who, you may recall, was officially allowed just two weeks to mourn his son's death, and who didn't even get anywhere near taking those 14 days off in practice - has now just passed the first anniversary of Ivan's death. Has no one noticed his marked change in his mood?

Cameron's in fighting form again and he's going to knock the sh*t out of Brown. The very least we can do is to him our wholehearted support.

Auntie Flo' said...

Is the Cameroon project flawed.
Of course!

Is the New Labour project flawed? Of course!

Is the Lib Dem project flawed?

Was the Blair project flawed?

Was Major's 'project' flawed?

Was Thatcher's project flawed?

Was Churchill's project flawed?

Was Ceasar's project flawed?

Is the human project flawed?

Newmania said...

Interesting Flo,personally I think its simple .Brown has engineered a mini election boom deferred the pain and people are feeling pretty good .
The nagging fear that its all amirage makes them stick with what they know a bit and in any case the polls always get better for the government when the election aproaches .

Auntie Flo' said...

I don't believe there is a real mini boom Newms, except for parts of the public sector.

I'm on the panel of the The REC employment survey, this recently showed that the public sector is the sole sector undergoing growth and that this public sector growth accounts for more jobs than have been lost in private sector.

That's clearly unsustainable growth in anything but the shrt term as the money to secure it is increasing UK's debt burden, which in turn is undermining our ability to borrow.

Everyone I know in the private sector feels worse off now, many are out of work or worried about their jobs and businesses. Mosthave taken pay freezes or pay cuts and inflation is rising.

One of my colleagues, a life long Labour supporter from a traditional working class, trade unionised, Bermondsey family has switched her support to Cameron because, as she says: "I'm fed up with it, my pension is rubbish, prices of everything's rising (she's early 70s and works full time) the country's full of migrants I have to help pay for and I'm being taxed to hilt. Cameron and Rob [our PPC] seem decent people: the country needs a change"

Joseph Takagi said...

The problem is that the Conservatives elected the wrong man, and for the wrong reasons. They picked someone because a focus group said he was the best candidate, rather than because of what he stood for.

This is now coming home to roost. People love nice, cuddly politicians when things are going well, but when the shit hits the fan, they'll take an uncouth strongman.

Cameron did nothing in the good times to warn of what was going on. The whole emphasis was not to talk about cuts, but instead about slow food, chocolate oranges and other such nonsense.

If they'd stuck more to their principles, they'd be looking at certain victory. They'd have come out as the person warning of the impending crisis, rather than Brown looking like he managed it all marvellously (ha!).

Newmania said...

'They' did stick to their principles I could give you quote after quote from such "failures " as Michael Howard.

Cameron could not go on saying the same thing

freedom v socialists said...

Cameron might be cute. Burt he needs to move to the right.

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