In 1997 a study for the Institute for Public Policy Research showed that32% of Hindu’s , Muslims and Sikhs and 29% of Jews would be repelled if a member of their family married an Afro-Caribbean , whereas only 13% of white Britons said they would have a problem.
(From How the Liberals Lost their Way by Nick Cohen …..a lefty but its a pretty good book)
. No-one is condemning these” Communities” …… why not ?
39 comments:
Sadly true.
I used to live in Stamford Hill, and I often saw young Hasidic Jewish children being taunted by older (usually black) children on their ways to and from school. On a Friday eveing, I often saw older teenagers (again usually black, I'm afraid) hurling abuse at people on their way to syngagogue. They would never react, but they must've been scared: I would have been.
I was talking to a girl of about 18 at work, while getting her set up for a test. She lived in N15, and when I told her I did too, she immediately asked if I was Jewish. When I said 'no', she started to complain about the Hasidic Jews in the area. I asked her what the problem was, and she said that she and her friends feel like they are looked down upon. And she's probably right. Ho hum.
Yes Margorie but the figures show that the Jews find the idea of blacks being intermarried with them repellant to a much greater extent than the white British do .
I am pointing out the extent of low level anti black racism in the other "communities"...especially Moslems of course
There is still so much ignorance on this subject, that is the reason why. I'll tell you what happened when my father introduced my mother to his parents for the first time. They had married in Greece where he was a soldier and his family had a smallholding in the Fens. They had no idea what to expect, they just knew he had married a Greek woman. The first thing they said when they met her was: "Thank God she isn't black then."
So we have progressed to a great extent since those days, it is just ignorance.
Marjorie's story is certainly thought provoking, we don't have these problems in Cambs that i am aware of.
N - I think the Jewish thing has a lot to do with anxiety about their children 'marrying out' and the prospect of goyische grandchildren. It would be informative to see data on the proportion of Jewish folk would feel uncomfortable about their progeny marrying out of the faith full stop. No need to lay out Hebraic law on uterine descendancy I presume.
Although Hinduism, Sikhism and Islam are not passed on in the same way, there will be a similar concern about the faith not being passed on to any children of the marriage.
Yes, I think Ellee makes a good point. Perhaps the most important insight in Cohen's book is the way that the left has become negative about Western society, democracy, human rights, the overthrow of tyranny, Israel, and so on, but has nothing to replace any of these with...
The way the Left has chosen to align themselves with anti-Americanism in whatever form it comes is proof of their political idiocy.
Nice to see you IT...You`ve read it then..not bad is it .
Yes I felt that these figures were skimming a complex pond especially as C says on the Jewish side
Ellee
Mrs N is of mixed race of course although this was not intended to be personal ,my father was a bit pissed off about the Welsh bit ......but don`t worry managed to be spectacularly politically incorrect whithin the first ten minutes.
Marian could hardly be married to me if she worried about that !
C-the faith not being passed on to any children of the marriage
I `m far from convinced that that is the whole story even if it were an excuse which it is not .On the other hand I `m, not one to be horrified that people are rascists excatly ,at least not to feign grandiose moral horrow at the drop of a hat
N - as you know, I am more than a little philo-semitic, and this is a BIG issue. At a friend's wedding I was picking up major vibes (and indirect comments) from the Jewish contingent along the lines of 'their only son, and he's a married a shiksa'.
Supposedly when Alan Dershowitz addresses Jewish audiences he always wraps up by saying, 'and don't marry out'.
Final piece of circumstantial evidence - a cartoon from the JC which a mate's brother has framed on his wall - Betty Saxe Coburg Gotha Battenberg wagging her finger at Charles, Andrew and Anne saying 'look what happens when you marry out', this coming after the third divorce. Said chap married out himself...
Meanwhile, note the usage of the rather unpleasant term 'Silent Holocaust' to describe assimilation.
The only people who can be guilty of racialism are the white English.
Didn't you all know that ?
I'm sure I've seen it written down in statute somewhere.
I have become a regular poster here in recent months and always post under my real name. Today, however, I wish to remain anonymous because race is such a sensitive issue; anyone who questions, let alone criticises, ‘mainstream’ thinking is a racist. It’s the new witchcraft – even in the Conservative Party.
Just look at the situation here in London. The majority of people involved in crime, especially gun crime, are black. The majority of under-achievers in our schools are black. The majority of single mothers are black. And the majority of those out of work are black.
Blacks are becoming increasingly racist and homophobic – mainly against whites. They are allowed to get away with murder (sometimes quite literally!). The police are either physically or politically scared of them. There is such as small black middle class – stand at any train platform at commuter times in a predominately black area, and you’ll find so few black faces. The white and brown faces out-number the black ones by about 9-1.
I think people have no problems with the colour of black people per se – it's their behaviour that pisses people off.
What can be done to change things for the better? Zero-tolerance policing, better integration by smashing up the ghettoes, traditional teaching methods enforced by strong discipline (bring back the grammar school and apprenticeships) high expectations by teachers of their black students, and an end to politically correct and victimisation cultures.
I should add that Africans integrate and behave far better than their West Indian counterparts. And within the West Indian community, it's mainly the Jamaicans who are, in the words of one Barbadian I know, “low lives”. Sadly, though, most people lump them all together.
* low lifes.
Hmmm I `m thinking about that anon...not sure
Here's my own experience.
I was raised in South London and have never known anything other than a multi-cultural society. I miss it since my move to Devon.
My high school had a mix of around 60% white, 30% black and 10% other including a strong gypsy presence. We had four of our pupils convicted of varying degrees of murder while I was there (all white). Lots of criminals too but on the other side of the coin one of my friends went on to Imperial College to become a Doctor in mathematics.
At around the age of 14 (to our dismay) all the black kids segregated themselves into their own group and where they had been speaking normal English they began to speak in unintelligible (to us) patois. Then they started mugging (draipsing as they called it)everyone of jewellery and money. As far as I know there was no counter movement against them and the authorities turned a blind eye.
When I started work I commuted into London by train. The acts of violence I witnessed were all perpetrated by black men. I saw underground staff picked up and thrown bodily by black men as they refused to present tickets at the barrier (this happened before me three times.) I lost count of the times where black men refused to let passengers off the train and forced their way onto it making people go to the other exit.
Whilst crewing patrol vans and Zulu (under cover) cars I would listen to the Met Area 1 radio (Nth East quadrant) and was struck by the amount of violent street crime perpetrated by black men - at least 80% by my reckonning.
I'm sorry that Anon feels the need to be Anon but understand totally why.
My apologies to any black people reading this. I know that so many of you are more British in spirit than I am and you're the ones I miss terribly.
It doesn't surprise me that white people are the least racist.
All my mates up here are white, and no-one minds a racist joke, but they'd all marry a black girl if they fell in love and none of their parents would mind in the slightest.
I was surprised only 32% of subcontinentals were so opposed to mixed marriages. If I'd been asked to guess how many I'd have guessed more like 70%.
Some members of the Pakistani community don't even talk to whites.
just to clear things up i am not anonymous, I do however take his/her point.
As I get older I am becoming rather less confident in my ability to deal with "trouble" and say I were to be walking along the road and saw a group of teenage hasidic jews and a bunch of teenage blacks guess who would give me cause for concern?
On a plus side, where I live most of the black folks are just normal decent people with jobs and nice houses, cover your eyes and talk with them and you wouldn't even know they were black, patois isn't spoken around here (except by daft young white boys)
There is very real problem with black boys in some areas , I say stick them in the army.
Oh
and croydonian really does have hebrew fever
only 32% of subcontinentals were so opposed to mixed marriages. If I'd been asked to guess how many I'd have guessed more like 70%.
Steven- This came from a left wing source and the figures were presented in a misleading way . I suspect what you guess may well be nearer to thr truth
Anon and Kevin...both of these views are interesting if somewhat troubling in parts...what I think I may do is do a follow up on this .
I cannot claim I don`t recognise a lot of what you say but having many black friends not to say a wife and child ( of varying shades) it isn`t easy not to feel rather unkind .
If I `m really honest the blacks are the ones I have the least against but we have no PC shit here and absolutely no getting our knickers in a twist about honestly expressed opinions. Especially , with , at the very least , large dollops of truth in them.
So anon rest asurred that as far as I am concerned you could be public and I would think none the less of you.
I once got into trouble on a site expressing my loathing of Islam and several infuriated and commited anons made some frightening threats . I was just about to tell them to ...etc. themsleves and I thought...hang on I am yards from an infamous Mosque , Ok its 100/1 on they are full of shit but why take the chance
( Obviously I think in really bad language )
YOu don`t need it do you.
I shall ponder further.
There is very real problem with black boys in some areas , I say stick them in the army.
...and with white boys of course but I know what you mean. It always sticks in my mind when e were looking or somewhere to live and we had a look at Lewisham.. Marian , who is black , looked out of the window of the car and sauid without thinking
" We can`t live here I haven`t seen a white face in ten minutes"
Her friends were mostly white but one or two of thenm were black (some great charcters actually) ...and one in particular lived both in black and white world , never mixing the two and whilst being black he spoke and behaved entirely differently.
Still a good friend
Nice to see you Hitch ...I think I would recongnise your style
It's obviously difficult to deal with something like my estimation of police radio activity concerning this situation. So much is my perception and I am as flawed as anyone else. Also this was 16 years ago and things may have changed a lot. I expect lots of white men are doing this sort of thing now too, probably more so in rural areas.
What would be interesting is to look up the amount of police operations that were set up in response to black street crime. I expect there are around 1/2 a dozen and a couple of COBRA meetings to boot. This cannot be ignored and shows quantifiably that it was not a figment of my imagination.
I was careful to include the murders by white youth I knew to give ballance.
I feel that the phenomena has been buried yet again - but so long as the truth is ignored it can never get better.
As with all things I say that can hurt people my conscience won't let me hide behind a pseudomym and I must be prepared to take the brunt if I'm wrong, but I know I'm not wrong.
Kevin Peat
Fascinating post _ I'm not 'anonymous' btw _ I've been out speaking at a conference today!
I'm interested to read the comments on experiences of black youth and black crime in London. But I am also struck with how the London experience does not gel with what little I know of life in other parts of UK. I have to say that all the people I know in London who have ever been mugged, have been mugged by black people. And there are a lot of them. Yet when I visit my mother in Swindon, just 80 miles away, the local paper is full of muggings _ almost invariably committed by white people _ why the difference?
* The Jamaican influence has certainly been pernicious in London: large parts of Jamaica seem to be in meltdown _ and the uncontrolled immigration into this country of Yardies and their families too, has ratcheted up the level of hardness expected of young black _ and white _ boys. Hence the ever wider adoption of patois, that 'pimp roll', and ever more violence.
*Add to this mix large numbers of traumatised young Somalis, who have become innured to violence back home, and you have a pretty explosive mix.
*These Jamaican/ Somali young men and boys are all ripe cannon fodder for recruitment by the Turkish heroin barons and Vetnamese cannabis barons, who make most of the money from illegal drugs whilst sitting, usually untouchable, in the background.
*Add to this the low expectations of black boys by drippy leftwing white teachers,
*lack of respect for education for boys in the black community (it's just for pussies),
*the left continually encouraging black people to blame under-achievement on racism
* the epidemic of teenage pregnancies and fatherless families affecting black people disproportionately
You can probably add a whole list of your own co-factors!
Against this background, it's no wonder that many of the all-too-few middle class black families are choosing to send their sons abroad to get a secondary education to keep them away form all these pernicious influences.
Fascinating post _ I'm not 'anonymous' btw _ I've been out speaking at a conference today!
I'm interested to read the comments on experiences of black youth and black crime in London. But I am also struck with how the London experience does not gel with what little I know of life in other parts of UK. I have to say that all the people I know in London who have ever been mugged, have been mugged by black people. And there are a lot of them. Yet when I visit my mother in Swindon, just 80 miles away, the local paper is full of muggings _ almost invariably committed by white people _ why the difference?
* The Jamaican influence has certainly been pernicious in London: large parts of Jamaica seem to be in meltdown _ and the uncontrolled immigration into this country of Yardies and their families too, has ratcheted up the level of hardness expected of young black _ and white _ boys. Hence the ever wider adoption of patois, that 'pimp roll', and ever more violence.
*Add to this mix large numbers of traumatised young Somalis, who have become innured to violence back home, and you have a pretty explosive mix.
*These Jamaican/ Somali young men and boys are all ripe cannon fodder for recruitment by the Turkish heroin barons and Vetnamese cannabis barons, who make most of the money from illegal drugs whilst sitting, usually untouchable, in the background.
*Add to this the low expectations of black boys by drippy leftwing white teachers,
*lack of respect for education for boys in the black community (it's just for pussies),
*the left continually encouraging black people to blame under-achievement on racism
* the epidemic of teenage pregnancies and fatherless families affecting black people disproportionately
You can probably add a whole list of your own co-factors!
Against this background, it's no wonder that many of the all-too-few middle class black families are choosing to send their sons abroad to get a secondary education to keep them away form all these pernicious influences.
Just to make hearts sink a little further: although no longer a local councillor I am still quite involved in various 'communitee' activities, and can report the following phenomenon. Many traditional black religious groups (Christian of various denominations) are deeply concerned that 'the youth' is being forcibly converted to Islam - often at the point of a knife.
Obviously in this manifestation it is no kind of religious conversion but an extension, & no doubt solidification, of gang culture. One can imagine the kind of unscrupulous characters for whom this is a useful swelling of the ranks of the semi-cohesive, impressionable alienated.
Doesn't take much of this to bring on the nightmares.
Good post Newmania and interesting comments esp Anon and Kev. Interesting that Kev felt the need to apologise at the end of his. I agree with Davis Allen that
"*the left continually encouraging black people to blame under-achievement on racism
* the epidemic of teenage pregnancies and fatherless families affecting black people disproportionately"
but a relative was policing in the 50's and 60's and commented that the main problem with the black community then was incest. So perhaps teenage pregnancies and 'fatherless' families has never been a much of a concern in their culture?
Mention has to be made of the fierce prejudice in the asian community - not just against whites but in their own caste system. You moan about the wrong choice of partner meaning financial loss but if you're a pakistani/Indian it may mean death, and killed by your own brother or cousins!
Kev noone can deny that more of certain sorts of crime are commited by blacks thatn whites and usually , by the way , black on black.
Or..I notice with the recent shootings not so much blacks as those who have become involved in a Yardy style gun culture .
It would equally be true to say that people who have no books in the house are vastly more likely to end up in prison , or people whose daughters attend Pony club are far less likely to commit crime at all.
Correlation is not the same , obviously as , causation and thats what I am trying to get to grips with .
David there is some good thinking there, as ever , and the sort of things you say are the begginning of looking for a solution.
I think one of the reasons one becomes so frustrated with the PC bann on truth in this area is that you cannot even begin to know what to do without it.
As Oscar Wilde said though, it is rarely plain and never simple
I have been mugged twice and on both occassions the assailant was black , on one occassion I was able to defend myself and on the other not .
On the other hand my experiences with violent confrontaion have been excusively white ...?
forcibly converted to Islam - often at the point of a knife.
Obviously in this manifestation it is no kind of religious conversion but an extension, & no doubt solidification, of gang culture
No Nick I do not agree , these are only tangentially related phenomena. Gangster culture is like a dark twisted version iof faustian individualism and against all organised religion especially such a closed and authoritarian one as Islam.
I think you have conflated two things that are only superficially a like. I suppose an act of Terrorism and a shooting have a similiar effect but they are quite different in their motivation.
Gangsterism is hedonistic , sexualised and orientated around drugs . I can`t see the connection for all that I dislike islam
the asian community - not just against whites but in their own caste system
P Now this was the modest intention that I had ;to suggest that " racism " is not the exclusive territory of whites. It is only one sort of prejudice which is a multidimensional problem and not always a problem. What the left really in their nasty little way believe is this :
" We expect better of whites"
Why ?
I do not
HAPPY BIRTHDAY DAVID !!!!
Thanks for the birthday greetings, N!
What you point out backed up by the research, is that racism is a much more complicated phenomenon than nasty whites hating anyone who isn't. There are all kinds of racial tensions here, many of them 'imported' from the home country. Hence the abiding dilike between Turkish and Greek Cypriots here etc. Another example: a white Norwegian girl I know has been clandestinely dating a Bengali boy. His mother has figured out something is up and is wildly speculating about why this girl hasn't put in an appearance at their home. her first thought was (god forbid) that he was dating a white girl. She is now imagining 'even worse' _ he might be dating the wrong kind of Bengali or a black girl. My Norwegian friend and her boyfriend are quite happy to let the mother-in-law stew for a bit so that when she when she eventually finds out the girlfriend is white, she will be relieved and think 'well, at least it isn't ......' It's quite funny in one way _ but also rather sad that people have to find these rather sad 'work-arounds' to the racial minefield of Modern Britain! Ta-da!
A Hindu pal of mine was studying law at Cambridge and made the 'error' of falling for a girl from a higher caste (defined by one's grandparents did apparently) - she was a brahmin, and he was whatever cobblers count as. He received death threats from her brothers.
Then again, a Hindu lad I used to work with was seeing a white girl, his parents didn't mind one little bit.
He wasn't that keen on Muslims mind you, we were out working one day when two women in Burka's walked past, he commented 'They should f*** off back to their own countries if they want to wear them.
Newmania, definitely a cultural issue and not a racial one IMHO.
Why did I appologise P ? Because I know it's just a small minority involved. Also the present PC climate engenders a feeling of guilt. As it happens my black friends and erstwhile colleagues were more vocal about the issue than me - they want to come to Devon. (Barmy if they did !)
Thanks David a Smorgasborg of paradox and Contradiction . I was at the Paper shop by Finsbury Station when the Indian owners pursued a Polish…( they thought ) thief shouting , “ Go back to Poland “ in between blood curdling threats intermittently in English only “. The feln shouted , “ I `m not fucking Polish “several times. I think he may have been of Turkish extraction given the location and colouring but who knows .
she was a brahmin, and he was whatever cobblers count as. He received death threats from her brothers.
There have been several de-capitations over the years on that score in London., one of which was in gentrified Barnsbury. I recall a tremendous article about the gulf between the Home Counties 'gels' who peered out curiously at the headless corpse on their door step , and the mental world of the assailants
We`re just one big happy community eh?
I have never thought of it before but really the Indian partition and the histsory of post independence India has been partly a resurgence of Hindu orthodoxy. I have usuallly thought of this as a good thing .
Some most interesting stuff in the Whats Left book I quote on the Lefts mis-interpretation of the Iranian revolution as a Marxist revolt on class lines BTW
she was a brahmin, and he was whatever cobblers count as. He received death threats from her brothers.
There have been several de-capitations over the years on that score in London., one of which was in gentrified Barnsbury. I recall a tremendous article about the gulf between the Home Counties 'gels' who peered out curiously at the headless corpse on their door step , and the mental world of the assailants
We`re just one big happy community eh?
I have never thought of it before but really the Indian partition and the histsory of post independence India has been partly a resurgence of Hindu orthodoxy. I have usuallly thought of this as a good thing .
Some most interesting stuff in the Whats Left book I quote on the Lefts mis-interpretation of the Iranian revolution as a Marxist revolt on class lines BTW
Newmania, definitely a cultural issue and not a racial one IMHO.
Yes Kev but the left are all to quick to confuse a wish to protect and preserve the core culture of the country as some sort of lunatic left-over eugenic theory.
They do this for obvious reasons and it the classic mis-ues of PC baying to drown out reasonbale debate
mr mania
brilliant thread
as you say it is a matter of culture not race , black friend of mine saw that "racist" gordon brown thing on my blog and thought it hilarious.
BUT!
The fact is blacks are far more likely to get involved in crime and it will not be solved by wishy washy polly toynbee types , as i say stck em in the army , best way to teach any male about self respect and loyalty to your fellow man.
I will say something for young black men , as well as having a great ense of rhythm , many also seem to be damn good shots
Stick 'em in the army? Nah, I'm still keen on the whole nuetering thing. I think it may become a crusade. Chain gangs and plastic ties maybe - you know the ones you thread through the little square at the end and have to cut to get off? Cheap and effective, I should be Home Secretary.
Its a measure of the state we have reached Phillipa that your universal neutering policy still leaves me in a quandary as to whther or not I`d be worse off
Post a Comment