Tuesday, November 13, 2007

No Means NO !


I do wonder if David Cameron is indulging in that favourite political posture, being, “In favour of good “and, “ against evil”, with his controversial suggestion that we should... “ Do something about the poor level of rape convictions “ .

From the figures it appears he has lifted up a rock. I am not so much impressed that only 5.7 % of reported rapes result in convictions now, as that, in 1977 , the same figures was 33%.I suspect the numbers reported would illuminate these statistics . If only severely aggravated cases ever came to light then the proportion would look healthy even if the underlying reasons were quite the reverse. In any case, if that 33% is composed of allegations that should not come to court, or were not properly proven , then where exactly has the law or its interpretation been changed ? Is the suggestion that it is worth a few innocent men being convicted to keep women safe ? I doubt it, and if we are going to favour the victim ,I would like to see that across the board not merely for, “Hate crimes”, and ,"anti- women crimes”I find the thought of rape appalling as any sane man does but I `m afraid I do not regard the allegation of rape as the same thing as the fact. This is some research done in America ...

Half of all Rape Charges May Be False
. At least 10 percent and perhaps as many as 40 percent of all rape charges are lies. Research results In the Midwest:41% of the total rape cases were recanted by the alleged victim during a 9-year study in a metropolitan Midwestern town. •45 of the 109 complainants admitted that no rape had occurred in period.The incidence figure (from 1978 to 1987) of false rape varied from year to year and ranged from a low of •27% to a high of 70% The alleged rape victims admitted that they had made the false rape charges for three reasons:
• to create an alibi,• to get revenge,• to get attention or sympathy.



It is not a question of assuming the woman is a liar, but of the presumption of innocence, in the absence of proof to the contrary . I will not have any special pleading that crosses that line . No means NO !

Rape is a particular sort of crime as regards proof . It is necessarily private and as the reporting level goes up the extent of complicity in the time place and opportunity are likely to increase making retrospective vision tricky. Date rape and grey area changes of mind en route are going to be in the mix not to say malicious accusation which certainly does happen. The plain truth is that the plain truth will never be known and for an innocent man this is decidedly inconvenient

Jill Seward in the Telegraph today complains that for every grievous assault and ( as she suffered) there are far more drug induced and alcohol blurred rapes of equal seriousness that require a specialist Jury to obtain convictions . No no no no....and again, I mean NO!. Such a specialist Jury would be conviction by political climate and feminist theory. Can you imagine how such ,“Expert Testimony”” would be torn to pieces in Court and rightly so.

So what’s to be done? The Conservative Party quote studies showing that half of young men think its acceptable to force a woman to have sex under some circumstances. Well frankly this is rubbish as is the claim that 1 in 20 has been raped . The rise in reporting is a good thing but the unfashionable truth is this .

The only people that can prevent rape are women .They can do it by being in the company of trusted men , not accepting drinks from strangers and being quite clear about their intentions .The more available , drunk and defenceless they appear the greater the risks they run and this is not condoning rapists any more than asking people to lock up condones burglars . The Conservative Party are suggesting there should be “lessons in consent” for boys at school. I would say any boy who needs that lesson will; never learn it. Such behaviours are not reached so coarsely and will only be changed as we change our society back to the respectful civilised society we once had...don`t get me started .... In the meantime women must be careful.

30 comments:

David Davis said...

When I employed people, years ago, there was a student (girl) who had what she called her "pulling dress". I saw it once, at our Christmas do, for she was "going on" afterwards. She (aged 16) (and her friends) would get these out, evenings, and go to "clubs". Mostly, she quite frankly and openly admitted that she didn't really need to be pulled except sometimes, when the time of the month was convenient and the bloke had a good enough car; she just enjoyed (a) the free drinks, and (b) the rise she got out of most men all the time.

I finally sacked her as happened with most of my people under about age 38, because she seemed merely to want to turn up to work and yet stay uninvolved with the firm (but she was regular, and never late!) as it was the one way to get paid so she could do other stuff. Also she could not write or spell (like all the others) since this skill was of no importance to her.

Today, many of my female students, aged 11 upwards, take a similar attitude. I blame the FEMINAZIS, for betrayally-selling the notion that "women can empower themselves", as an idea, to other women. You should see how some of these very, very young women dress, even just on a Saturday, to go "shopping". If I was their father or even their mum, I would protest, and I'm not even a Moslem - just an ordinary Catholic! It shocks my wife when we meet them in the street.

The idea of "empowerment" and the like, is false and tragic. It is wrong wholly to blame men, many of whom, like my girl-employee above, are crude, unsocialised, one-dimensional-creatures owing to State-"education", for the state of affairs which has come to pass.

Men want sex. They have to. (It's nice; it's your reward from your genes, for being able to send them on their immortal way - read Richard Dawkins, that great Christian man!) It's the job of the Y-chromosome of all the Great Apes, to ensure that it happens with as many different females as possible.

The best way of avoiding the pitfalls of this potentially destructive biology in a highly-structured Judeo-Christian civilisation was the way it was done until Kenneth Tynan said f*** on the Wireless Tele-Vision, and sex was invented in 1963.

Philipa said...

No does indeed mean no. And as you champion his views so strongly Paul I wonder if you've read PH's blog post on this? He seems to think, as is the old-fashioned view, that you have t be chaste in order to cry rape. I don't believe that, I believe that even in a marriage, and this is very important, even in a marriage for a woman to be forced to have sex against her will is rape. and that's got bugger all to do with being in a regular sexual relationship with a person. No means no, I agree.

Newmania said...

Phillipa I wopuldn1t get into telling women how they have sex and when.Hitchens has apoint though whne there is no proof then the reputation if thr woman is all you have.
My point is that you cannot invent proof when there is noen and as there wil often be none women have to be resposible for the risks they run

Little Black Sambo said...

Bias in favour of the victim: in a case of possible rape the victim may be the woman, if it happened, or the man, if the accusation was false. Would these specialist juries include people biased in each direction? What nonsense!

Newmania said...

The best way of avoiding the pitfalls of this potentially destructive biology in a highly-structured Judeo-Christian civilisation was the way it was done


I think there is alot in this , I don1t knwo that I would blame women especially though.Many women also feel that they are paradoxically emprisoned by the "Free and easy"life we have

Newmania said...

Just so LBS just so

Philipa said...

David Davis said "Men want sex. They have to.

Your first point is correct DD, men do indeed want sex, as do women, most of the time, but based on that premise your argument flounders - they don't have to, that is what we call civilisation and we live in a society with laws that rightly protect women from such brutal... what's the word... ah, rape!

If a woman wears a short skirt it does not make it ok to rape that woman, whether she can spell or not is irrelevant.

Philipa said...

N - as ever PH is a mixture of spot on brilliance and irritation. OK, let me blurb through this..


I made a flippant remark on another thread here so let's explore that - I wrote that Peter Hitchens had a nice ass*. I sincerely hope PH doesn't read this blog as he might be offended by my apparently treating him like a piece of ass. I didn't mean it that way but he could be offended by my remark. (when is he not?) Think how much more he would offended if he wore a tight pair of trousers and a had a few too many drinks at a political event and then, on his way home, he fell off his bike and was dragged into the bushes and raped. I don't think that would be ok. But I'm not so sure about DD - oh it's not ok, why? Because he's a man or because he's a man that can spell?

Peter has a daughter and I'm guessing she can spell too but if she made a mistake and got drunk, whilst horror of horrors she was wearing something sexy, then forcing her to do ANYTHING against her will would be wrong. Very wrong.

I don't care if I'm lying naked in the road and mumbling 'take me baby' - if I am clearly drunk then there were, as PH points out, rules about that sort of thing, and I believe there still should be. A man CAN and SHOULD either help or walk away, he should not take selfish carnal and base advantage of the situation of the person, of that soul. I wholeheartedly believe that Peter would either help or walk away, even if I was attractive to him, he's that sort of Man. I'm not so sure about DD though ;-)

When there is no proof all you have is reputation? Not so, putting the responsibility on the man is all you need, there is no need for proof. Therefore this forces a return to honour and respect and most of all caution. Don't go back for coffee, date until you marry the girl.

Would that we could all be in happy marriages like you Paul and like Peter, but not all men have your attitudes. Sadly, the way the modern social climate is, they are not likely to aquire them. You're a dying breed honey x

*(and I have to admit I don't actually know - never seen his ass, it was a joke, though I'm sure that like the rest of him it's perfectly formed... ok, stop digging)

Newmania said...

Phillioa , noone thinks rape is forgiveable under any circumstances the point is that you only have someones word for it and its bound to be that way.


Your esmarks reminded me . In 2006 8 April the Indepemndent carried this headline

All The Money In the World Won`t Help A Man if he hasmn`t got a pert bottom.


I hope you aren`t going to get into your Peter Hitchnes thing though . Its not healthy.He`s just a writer and a lot of the time of a fairly predictable sort

IMHO

Philipa said...

Just covering my ass N ;-)

Philipa said...

And get into my Peter Hitchens thing?? You mean be immersed in argument through little fault of my own and have to deal with the most awful social situation and repercussions to my reputation and health whilst trying to recover from surgery? Hmm that thing. It's not healthy? No it's not healthy to be as hurt as I was for so long.

No dear, you mentioned him I think in one of your posts, I was just guessing you'd read his blog and agreed with him. He is, after all a major political columnist - am I not allowed to mention his name or his work here too? Everyone else but not me? I'd best go then.

Newmania said...

Oh go on then...did I mention him I`d forgotten. I must say I don`t actually know the whole story. No offence intended P

Daisy said...

i agree with most of what you said newmania...however i am so sick and tired of being "careful" just because men are out in public...i do not dress sexual or act in a sexual manner in public however, i have to be "careful" because some man may not have control over his own being and an attack could happen...i have to watch where i walk, who i talk with, how i stand, where i stand and i am tired of it...if a man does not have control over his being enough not to attack someone to get his rocks off...he needs to go home and tell himself the five fingered story until he does get control...

i am not a feminist...i am just so tired of this act...it is so different being raised a female than male and i really don't understand the sense of it all...i do so appreciate your beliefs about it and how you understand that no does mean no...however that is not 50% of the men's understanding out there...i guess it stands to say one can be male without truly being a man...

Philipa said...

Yup, what Daisy said.

Elby the Berserk said...

Newmania said...

Phillipa I wopuldn1t get into telling women how they have sex and when ....

Having previously said ...

"The only people that can prevent rape are women .They can do it by being in the company of trusted men , not accepting drinks from strangers and being quite clear about their intentions" etc ...

Newmania - I've read your garbage on abortion as well (Lilith's boyfriend here, by the way).

Bottom line is - you are an old fashioned male chauvinist. Why not just go down the pub and hang out there, where you can all join in telling women how to live their lives.

Jeez. I don't believe it. Women - do this. Women - don't do that. Methinks you do protest far too much.

Newmania said...

Daisy ...yes I can see that. It is oppressive but i wouldn1t worry so much the chnaces are tiny. All I say is that there is noothing much the law can do for you without being a gross abdication of the rights of any innocent man.

Newmania said...

Elby - Why don`t you just go down the herbal tea room and pretend your faux male feminism isn`t just an attempt to get into someones knickers.If you have something to say , say it .If not .....

Elby the Berserk said...

Newmania, happily partnered as I am, with a lovely woman (who I don't accuse of murder for the abortion she had many years ago), I neither need nor appreciate your advice - there's a good reason also why I prefer the company of women to men much of the time - men like you being a lot to do with it. Just what the f makes you believe you have the right to tell women how to behave? Eh?

Newmania said...

I do not . I say that the law cannot be a horse standing on its hind legs for the sake of a fashionable cause .Innocent unitl proven guilty ,full stop , and without "specialised" juries for alleged rape which would be a preversion of justice as dispesned elsewhere.

On abortion, it depends when it happened .The history of feminism has , for obvious reasons been associated with recapuring the female body from child birth but manyt years after the pill that should be behind us.

If someone one now had a child aborted 'after' the legal limit I would regard it as murder with whatever mitigating circumstances there might be and with vartyijg ndegrees of symopathy , but to pretend there is no other person involved than the women is ,unfortunately, a lie .It all depends and also on the advise prevailing at the time , to be fair .


I know exactly why you like the company of women and I understand your gambit .Hope it works out for you.

Elby the Berserk said...

"On abortion, it depends when it happened .The history of feminism has , for obvious reasons been associated with recapturing the female body from child birth but many years after the pill that should be behind us."

Wrong - recapturing the female body from male control, I believe. And to add your wild surmise re my "faux feminism" - firstly, yes, my ex of 32 years was fiercely involved in early feminist groups in Oxford. I happily supported her in that - how can men be "free" when women are not? When she got pregnant with our fourth (at this point, we had 3 under the age of 5), she did wonder whether she would cope, and did consider an abortion. I didn't want her to have one, but made it clear that I would not take up against whatever decision she came to. Happily, she produced a beautiful daughter to add to our three sons.

So I know of which I speak, and 25 years on I would deal with this problem the same way, by supporting my partner in her decision.

And to all - keep that god bloke out of it please ...

David Davis said...

Philipa!
I NEVER said it was all right to rape a woman just because she was wearing a short skirt (or whatever else)! Do you even know any nice man, who would rape a woman even if you paid him? He could not do it, neither could I. You have to be willing, my dear, or his willy will not stand up for you, if he is an ordinary socialised male.

But you must agree, it makes it hard for a man (and I didn't mean that as a dirty pun either, it just got sort of typed that way.)

Many, many men are not equipped, philosophically, to face these temptations. Specially under British State (non)education, which I personally blame, having worked in it for years, for a lot of ills. The Moslems got round it by blaming the women for being sexy when unclothed. (Where do they get all the 72-multiples-of (presumably also dead) virgins do you think, for paradise?)

You don't think that's right, do you, either, I am quite sure.

Newmania said...

I`m not anti abortion I just support the message a reduction of the upper limit would send to a country where we are flushing unborn children away as a means of contraception. I believe 20 weeks is about the right limit .(Inconvenient though it may be )

I do not see how you can keep moral and metaphysical belief out if it , if thats what you mean by god.

Lord I cannot imagine the horror of having to traipse around after a load of sack wearing fem bots ....still they`re all pink on the inside spose

Elby the Berserk said...

http://tinyurl.com/9h55n

Elby the Berserk said...

Link again ... on abortion warriors (mass murderers...?)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2210476,00.html

Elby the Berserk said...

And for the fellow faux-feminists amongst us, proof that hanging out with feminist women is the best bet !

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2211202,00.html

Sorry Newmania. Back to your gentleman's club to huff and puff

Elby the Berserk said...

Cat got your tongue, Newmania ... or just some uncomfortable points made? Long time since I've come across a male in print with such an antediluvian approach to women. Keep up the good work ...

~Miss Smack said...

Today, on news.com.au, i read a sad story about a 19 year old Saudi woman who received 200 lashes and a jail term after being gang-raped by a few Sunni arabs. They got jail terms as well, justly so, but she received the lashes because she was in the car with someone other than a male relative/husband.

Very Very sad.

Newmania said...

Elby I have recently moved and yesterday I was off work and had no access to the internet . I have folowed one of your kinks (arf) and another will not serve itself up .

Not entirely sure what point you are making but my suspicion is you are trying to reconstruct an argument from the 1970s based on American militant feminism.


My views on the position of women are are not connected especially to my views on abortion now I come to think about it and I question the need for the sort of feminsim you seem to be talking about .

There are no obstacles to women succeeding , or at least they are vastly less than obstacles confronting other groups by class race etc.There are valid questions about limits for abortion and the manner in which the descision is made but women equally have different views and , sadly for you , you cannot claim to be speaking for women or men .

Actually I would dearly love there to be a club with a smoking room where I could get away from women but thanks to Caroline Flint , an numb-skull promoted for her phtogenic looks , I am unable to smoke . ON the other hand I like women a great deal ...so what


I suggest pragmatic responses to realities given that the law cannot be bent to fit rape alegations as semi proven prior to court.



You .. have gone beyond obsessing about feminism to actually wanting to be a woman. Its an intersting development and a a welcome one .
I have a pile of ironing to do and iof you felt as a gesture of sisterly solidarity you wanted to do it you are more than welcome .

Newmania said...

Miss S lovely to see you, I also notice 40 women were exceuted in Basra by Muslisms for wearing the wrong colouyred head scarf. Dreadful dreadful news

Elby the Berserk said...

Thanks Newmania, and with your final statements, I rest my case.

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