Monday, April 30, 2007
Guns Kill People ( Shock News)
Its easy to go off on a Libertarian shtick about guns but its all rubbish really , no sensible person wants US availability here. Their history is entirely different and as Conservatives we should respect that things are often as they are for good reason and moving one element may misunderstand the whole structure.
Engand Wales had 766 recorded murders in 2005 including the 52 victims of of July 7. Scotland was vastly more violent as usual with 93 deaths bringing the total to 859 (.Tells you all you need to know about the odious Pictish horde.) Anyway the average is about two or three day and the risk could be called 15 per million per year.
In America 17000 deaths violent deaths in 2005 suggesting 46 deaths per day and this equates to 50 in every million per year. The old answer is that guns do not kill ,people do. Maybe, but it’s a bloody sight easier if you have a gun and I dread to think what would happen in the estates of London if there was ever any Liberalisation of gun laws. It is a culturally specific thing as we know from Switzerland but our culture would be struck down the way gin struck the Victorian Working classes.
Put the toys down and back slowly away . Guns do kill people
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66 comments:
What's the solution to our inner city gun problem though?
Clearly it's deeper than tougher gun control - but it would be a start for the police and border people to stop them circulating!
I think we are panicking a bit about nothing Ed. You will never stop people who are determined to get guns and the overall crime rate is not moving significantly.I agree there are far deeper problems that for me revolve around housing and benefits
Not to mention edookashun - and when high calibre people like you move out of the inner city then the people left are hardly going to get a good social mix in their schools!
The stats for violent deaths in America:
- are these homicides or are killings in self-defence included in these stats as well, in which case that's good isn't it ?
- are all of these deaths by means of the gun ?
Peter Hitchens has a good article on his blogsite about gun ownership.
The other figure not included in murder stats is the effect of modern first aid and casualty units on life-saving. Transpose modern day behaviour into the 1970s (a time of widespread gun ownership) and the murder rate would have been much higher - so what do we conclude ? Gun ownership or behaviour is the cause ? As far as I know knives are the prefered killing instrument at the moment.
The restrictions on guns were introduced because of a couple of nutters who went on the rampage, nothing to do with gangsterism.
are these homicides or are killings in self-defence included in these stats as well, in which case that's good isn't it ?
No it isn`t if you carry guns you will not be attacked with harsh words ,its part of the same picture
- are all of these deaths by means of the gun ?
now that hadn`t occurred to me and I assume there are a proportion of knife killings . I would imagine that the country with the greater share of those would be here which reinforces the point
Peter Hitchens has a good article on his blogsite about gun ownership.
The Hitch- I like the Hitch but would he seriously want a country that was what he says he wants . I have my doubts
The other figure not included in murder stats is the effect of modern first aid and casualty units on life-saving.
Well you are talking about the restrictions introduced here which I agree were not helpful. I am talking about the overall situation here as opoosed to the US which varies but is in general far far more lax
The restrictions on guns were introduced because of a couple of nutters who went on the rampage, nothing to do with gangsterism.
True but theere us world in between that includes the big numbers
Not high calibre Ed just average and I am exactly the sort of person who does move out . The elevated few pay from private schools.
People will do almost anything to keep their children out of the schools near me.It is self reinforcing
It's sad! I should move to England!
There is the other side of the argument, Newmania.
Peter Hitchens (Mail) speaks of them being used in household defence - I posit this: for the guns to be readily accessible at such times they must therefore be insecurely stored and vulnerable to theft, so you have a point about their likely increased circulation.
I don't feel that we're anywhere near the stage that we need arming, though I don't live in inner London, Nottingham or Manchester.
It's sad! I should move to England!
Now you are talking Jenny
I abhor any kind of violence, I could never own one a gun. As Kevin says, they have to be kept securely locked away and most violent crimes are spontaneous. I think improving home security is important, installing cctv cameras or those bells with an intercom.
Kev you`ve been a policeman, when you think what attending a domestic might be like if there was likely to be gun around would that be fair on anyone ?
Ellee I don`t know ..I `m not fussed about a scrap here and there myself. Kev is right its the presence of knives that has changed everything , more than guns.
Fact is NM you can buy a handgun on pretty much any big inner city estate for £50, which is less than they would cost if they were available in shops, so I don't think that for illegal weapons availability is the issue.
I agree with your point that murder is more likely if a gun is present, and I guess the risk of a legally held firearm being used to murder is probably highest in domestic violence cases. This is one strong argument in favour of control
But it is kind of crazy that our olympic pistol shooting team has to train overseas, but the rifle, clay pigeon and archery lot are still allowed to keep their weapons.
I think E-K is right that a lot of this is about secure storage. I don't have a problem with any non-criminal non-nutter having a legally held firearm (though not an AK-47) for any legitimate purpose as long as it is securely and safely stored
On the whole I don't think people care that much if it is hoodies bumping each other off - but when some sad loser takes a sem-auto into a primary school ...
Yes, Newmania - domestics ...
I've not much experience with those really, but yes - can't be good to have weapons around an unhappy marriage.
Fact is NM you can buy a handgun on pretty much any big inner city estate for £50
You say that MS but you have less than no idea of which you speak . People used to say dreadful things about my wifes estate but as she tells me , for most people this fearsome reputation was another world .How would you know looking in ?Many of the people who live in the Andover estate supposedly a legend for sinkness deny this is the wordl that exists there.
You arguement is like the one for legalising drugs . The people most against it are exactly those who rely on the law being strict and enforced
as long as it is securely and safely stored
Then why have it at all . I do agree out laws are overly restrictive now but anything to combat the increasing number of guns in circulation is worth trying .
I love England!
Mostly its crap Jenny
I am with you on this newmania. An angry youth with a gun is a lot more dangerous than an angry youth with no gun.
Same applies to knives.
the opposite is true of spliffs.
Now go frame the laws, man.
Good for you CU ...living is a bit useless at time but it beats the alternative .
Jenny. 3:43
It's sad! I should move to England!
No - move to Greece.
Jenny 9:40
I love England!
So do I - move to Greece.
Banning guns for law abiding citizens has not stopped gun crime but I think it is not valid to link the rise with the banning, as most people who commit the crimes would be unlikely to have been allowed to hold a legal license anyhow.
Knives are the biggest issue. You cannot 'ban' knives. (especially big, shiny, f***off ones - guns for show, knives for a pro etc.).
I am personally in favour of getting real with sentencing when knives are USED, especially against unarmed opponents. If you stab someone with a knife it should be attempted murder. Period. Kids should be told that to stab someone runs the risk of killing them. If you attack someone on purpose in a way that can kill them, then to me that is attempted murder. Such attempted murders should be sentenced accordingly - double digit even after good behaviour/parole blah blah.
The point of this is to make drawing a knife on an unarmed person bascially STUPID and with very severe consequences, limiting the use of knives to incidents where both are carrying. Make "civilians" not worth the bother - the idea of "not making a Federal case out of it", as it were.
Yes, many have absolutely NO IDEA about consequence (and that is one of the key building blocks of criminality and criminal behavour, if you ask me) but then again we will give such incidents the proper focus on policing terms and should get more of that kind of nutter off the street.
Not perfect, just least worst.
Illegal firearms have always been available - for a price. These were in the main second world war revolvers. The country is now awash with cheap automatic and semi-automatic weapons mostly brought into the country from Eastern Europe.
Over the years, and mainly due to lack of resources, HM. Customs and the police have lost control of the illegal importation of these weapons.
They are freely available to every criminal and idiot who wants to own and carry one.
The legislation is there to deal with the problem but not the funding. In my opinion the country needs a second (national) police force run on the lines of other European 'Border Police' forces. Give them the funding and the resources and give them responsibility for illegal importation of,people,firearms, drugs etc.
Thats interesting Ratty amnd a bit serious for you ( thus far). The Conservative Party are trying to move towards having an elite national force and a responsive accountable local one and I think this is the way to go in many ways myself
ROGER-Not perfect, just least worst.
least worst is the best available and I often think policy should be framed without " the vision thing " intruding. there are problems for the Police in dealing with knife carrying now and even when a knife is used in the course of crime .I have the details atv home. I think therecis a bit of agreement here funnily enoughthast it is knives that are the worst problem
Mr. Newmania.
Addendum.
Greece borders onto several Balkan countries which in the past have been the source of illegal weapons, drugs and immigrants into the uk. The border police here are proactive not only at the borders but in large urban areas where the mostly illegal Albanian, Bulgarian, and Rumanians tend to congregate. Of course, illegal drugs and firearms exist here but in the main it is well under control.
The problem is, to set up a similar structure in England will cost a lot of money. Additionally I here the left shouting 'Police State'
I disagree ratty . It would be impossible to spend more money on less than we do at the moment.
The average sick days for Met Plod is 21 per year 21!!!
I have al ot more info but that tells you what the organisation is like.
It has to be broken up into its functions then it can be accountable for cost and performance
It would cost less
An amount of the cost to set up an organisation like this would be heavily offset by the assimilation of departments of existing agencies,immigration, police, customs etc.
In my experience officers taking sick leave is an indication of many unseen problems that need addressing.
I could give you a list of reasons why it is a problem in the police service but I don't think here is the place.
In my experience officers taking sick leave is an indication of many unseen problems that need addressing.
Yes I agree and there are quite obviously serious problems with ther Police Force.Its sad that many of the same people doing as poor job are themlseves deeply unsatisfied with what they and others do. Its a sick organisation and badly in need of a makeover
..I should say I do not suscribe to the view that all Policemen are dreadful people.We get a tremendous intake as you should for the money but from what I have been told by PLods I know utter cynicism soon sets in
N said "Kev is right its the presence of knives that has changed everything , more than guns." sorry but I think that's crap. There have always been knives about but we've not always had the problems we have today.
There didn`t used to be knives there way there are now P
The thing is, I quite like guns. Having said that, CityUnslicker's point is a good one.
I quite like guns.
Not keen myself . I do like Motorbikes though I my guess is that I am more like to kill somone than you are ..( by accident of course )
Why not issue everyone with armour - so the bullets would bounce off? OR how about flooding the market with cheap weapons so the supply is huge and then the illegal importers would give up - thats an economists solution - should appeal to Cityunslicker. OR what about stationing the army in our streets to return fire - I think thats my favourite idea.
I have decided to talk about politics Mr N - I think you can see how well I am doing.
I hope Philippa is not about she scares me....
You make perfect sense to me, Mutleythedog. Now that's worrying.
Why do you say that??? I quite enjoyed London!
Of course I do Mr EK! Don't worry. On deeper consideration I have concluded that the armour idea is the most practical - as the prospect of the army on our streets seems to frighten some people. To this end I am seeking endorsements from the relatives of victims and celebrities. I see a weeping mother next to a coffin - saying "If Only He Had the Protection of MutleyArmour (TM Pending) he would Be alive today" Or some such.. I shall be contacting relatives today. Fingers crossed!
I see a celebrity ad saying something lke "I never leave home without Mutleyarmour (TM Pending) - then panning out to show everyone behind and around him/her on a Tube station or some such background - is wearing Mutleyarmour as well!!
Do you think your friend Iain Dale (grrr) would be up for an endorsement Mr N?
Do you know what Mutley I was only posting on my good friend and wannabe lover Mr Iain dales site that the Doughty Street thingy should be more plural . I like politics but it does get dull and people are more rounded …well sane ones.
Why not have a web programme for comedy art love life food music and fun stuff perhaps with a bit of politics and some sport and things all these are out there in the blogasphere and then someone might watch it .
They are indeed selling Kevlar plated hoody suits for children to go to school in I kid you not . It wouldn`t happen in Bridport would it .
JENNY London is ok and in any case you have only a matter of hours before my tempting offer lapses . You young lady had better scurry back to your blog where the chance of a lifetime awaits you.
Hi EK ,.,,,busy today but I `ve got a good one for tomorrow
Newmania:
When's the next flight???
Oh how will I endure being teased by impossibly young and pretty American women.....somehow I must find the courage to go on
I was proposing something more effective than that Mr N - similar in design to that worn in Robin Hood movies I think. I have found a few victims websites and blogs Mr N - I await a response from them. I am sure it will be enthusiastic - and it will be a chance for them to make a few quid. I will need some investment Mr N - I understand you recently sold your house...
I might jusr mention that idea to mrs N to see how high she gets before realising I am not serious
( I do have a bit of previous with that sort of thing )
Newmania:
You'll find a way! If not, I wouldn't be able to tease anymore and then I would be very sad!
I agree with what you say and love your reference to the "Pictish horde"!
Hallo Welshcakes ...what a nice suprise...I imagine you are enjoying another idyllic day.
Ciao bella !
I am serious Mr N!! I shall write a petition to No.10 about this I feel we should all throw our weight behind it...
Mutley if you were visibly burning alive in front of me I would assume it was an elaborate joke
Lah lah lah lah - just wanted to share that with you Newmania sweetie.
Mutley - I scare you? Aw honey, you would not believe! Bigger men than you have run away screaming (Kev - say nothing)
Actually N, honeybunch, I've got some kick-ass questions but I'm in the mood for.... tell you later ;-)
I have a nail gun. I wonder if I should do the right thing and hand it in to the local police? I am not proud - I can use glue instead...
NM
1) Love the idea of maniavision. Sex and shouting is always a good combination, (as long as there are no guns around). Go for it. MTD as co-producer, I think: He seems to have a lot of the right ideas
2) Then why have it at all . I do agree out laws are overly restrictive now but anything to combat the increasing number of guns in circulation is worth trying
I absolutely agree with trying to reduce the number of illegally held weapons "in circulation". An olympic standard target pistol held in a secure safe at a registered gun club with appropriate security is not going to get into circulation.
And yeah OK so I exaggerated, but it is true that if you really want to get hold of a gun it's not difficult and not expensive. Legally held weapons are not the problem.
Legally held weapons are not the problem.
True true...actually somehwat suprisingly this has been a good thread . For some reason it often is the ones you don`t think to hard about . I think Ratty had some good ideas following on from Mens Saunas point.
I have a nail gun. I wonder if I should do the right thing and hand it in to the local police? I am not proud - I can use glue instead...
The problem is I have absolutely no confidence that you were going to nail dead things.
Bigger men than you have run away screaming (Kev - say nothing
You are so all talk Phillipa admity it.
Odd things, guns. A lot of it is about attitude.
I had my first shotgun (a 410)when I was 12 and have owned them pretty much since then. Before then, I had an air rifle. Which I once made the mistake of pointing (unloaded) at my 25-year professional soldier dad. It was one of the few times he spoke with such concerned-angry emphasis that I have never forgotten his words - "Never, never point a gun at a man unless you intend to kill him. Loaded or unloaded". I have never, even in jest, pointed a gun at another human since.
It was that sort of upbringing, I now suppose, that has always led me to see guns as just tools, as part of the panoply of rural management alongside the scythe, the billhook and the castrating shears.
I've never really shot for pleasure - always for the pot, or just vermin control. There really isn't much pleasure in shooting a sentient thing. When plucking a pheasant or skinning and paunching a hare you always know it was better off alive. Until it's been in the oven for half an hour.
But i have to admit there's a wierd snobbery in me as well about it (yes Mr N - I know I'm setting myself up for a kicking!). Guns are fine for country people, irrespective of class. 'Working class' country folk these days wear army surplus camo and drive Ford pickups. And listen to C&W. My own 'stout Yeoman' cohort favours old cords and shiny sun bleached Barbours. The 'county set' have tailored things made out of fine suiting-cloth in heather shades and stripes. All fine with guns, IMHO.
What worries me is someone with a Romford accent, gold sovereign rings, a baseball cap and an Italian over-and-under. 'Bit dodgy letting people like that have guns', I think.
The problem is, when issuing licences, you can't tell the difference between someone who just sees a gun as an agricultural tool, and someone who sees it as a Possibility.
But, for the sake of retaining my old AYA side-bysides, I'll take the risk of a few nutters from Romford.
Apols for length Mr N.
Not at all Raeders and what you say makes perfect sense . As I briefly mentioned guns interact with culture ,insert usual remark about the Swiss having no gun crime , and the effect of their availability is a socially dependent one . A gun may protect a citizen or stop a robber or dissuade another gun man.It isn`t that simple an equation. Also guns are tools for the rural chaps and always have been. This is the reality of an activity being in a tradition ..like fox hunting. On the face of it why not have two asbo kids torture a puppy to death on you front lawn. Same thing....ah yes but it isn`t. Explaining why isnt easy but it is clear when you look at it
I am a Conservative in the sense that I think this difficult arguement of culture prescription and freedom is the key to a free but civilised society.....and I `m afraid I am well into don`t get me started territory here
We disagree on this one, but I know you already knew that because you already read/commented on my post on the subject.
I'm American, so I'll always see gun ownership for the law-abiding citizenry as a Second Amendment right that shouldn't be abridged. Even though I personally dislike guns.
I'm not about to take a page out of Jenny's book and move to England, either...
Although I wouldn't mind visiting... British accents are hot. And England is so beautiful.
RUTHIEI `m not unsysmspathetic to the US wish to keep their right to bear arms Ruthie. It has none of the symbolic importance here and the only people that want guns are farmers and criminals.
If I was an American I would be very much on your side. I have only visted New York which I love . I `m told it isn't very typical though
God has a hard-on for the Marine Corps - they keep heaven stocked with fresh souls...
Mutleythedog: On deeper consideration I have concluded that armour idea is the most practical...
Kevlar reinforced hoods - yipee !
Old ladies: knit one - pearl two ...
EK I detect a certain "Tired and emotional" enhanacement of your mood
I was more than a little sozzled when I wrote that.
I mixed my drinks last night - lager, bitter and JDs. I feel and look my age right now.
Eeuch !
Newmania - Nope, not all talk - and Kev once suggested I scared men away by my unsubtle approach.
Kev I don't know what you mean - I didn't scare Newmania or Jack or... there's a list! Anyway, how's your hangover?
Well, Philipa - you don't scare me for a toffee-flea either.(squeak !)
Hang over is still, er, hanging over. I will never EVER do it again. Until next time, at least.
Raedwald-
politically incorrect but 100% spot on
That was good, Raedwald. Yes - England is not the place of sensible (if eccentric) people it once used to be.
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